“Zach” is real. His name is Zach Stark.
A Google search finds that, until today, Zach had only been identified by full name in one obscure blog.
However, in an interview for Pat Robertson’s national CBN TV network, father Joe Stark now defends sending Zach to what critics call an ex-gay boot camp:
“We felt very good about Zach coming here because… to let him see for himself the destructive lifestyle, what he has to face in the future, and to give him some options that society doesn’t give him today,” Stark said. “Knowing that your son… statistics say that by the age of 30 he could either have AIDS or be dead.”
(Hat tip: Norm)
Has someone been providing false life-expectancy statistics to Mr. Stark for media consumption, or is he expressing deeply ingrained stereotypes that Love In Action merely reinforced?
Whatever the case, CBN also distorted what Stark’s son wrote in his blog.
(Hat tip: Timothy)
From Zach’s blog, with the text removed by CBN in italics:
“…Well today, my mother, father and I had a very long ‘talk’ in my room where they let me know I am to apply for a fundamentalist Christian program for gays. They tell me that there is something psychologically wrong with me, and they ‘raised me wrong.’ I’m a big screw up to them, who isn’t on the path God wants me to be on. So I’m sitting here in tears…”
Here’s how CBN rewrote Zach’s message:
“My mother, father, and I had a very long ‘talk'” he wrote, “…where they let me know I am to apply for a fundamentalist Christian program for gays… I’m a big screw up to them, who isn’t on the path God wants me to be on. So I’m sitting here in tears.”
Joe Stark claims he’s just offering his son options:
“Zack has got a mind of his own, and that’s a God-given gift,” Joe said. “And Zack will have to make those choices when he is an adult as to what exactly he is going to do with his life. But until he turns 18 and he’s an adult in the state of Tennessee, I’m responsible for him. And I’m going to see to it that he has all options available to him.”
Sorry to disappoint, but I fail to see how weeks of compulsory “treatments,” conducted by unlicensed fundamentalist counselors utilizing the propaganda of Paul Cameron, provide a youth with freedom of choice.
I hope and I pray that Zach is able to not only get out of that LIA cult group but will leave the state of Tennesee altogether and perhaps move to California or some other place. If I had parents like he has I would move as far away from them as I could get and I would cut off all contact with them until I felt strong enough to face them head on!! Parents like that need to be told by their gay children to either deal with them in a dignified, respectful manner or they can forget about any contact or communication at all. Zach’s parents (especially his father) sound like typical toxic fundamentalist parents in their controlling natures.
What a struggle this must be for Zach. I pray and hope that all of us in the gay community can give him the support and the unconditional love he deserves. He’s going to need all he can get.
Indeed Mike,But this is about the parent’s freedom of choice, remember… haven’t you been taking John Smid’s words on board???This does run parallel to the way I see many on the extreme of “that side” thinking these days — “freedom of religion” is interpreted as their freedom to do something to others. Not a freedom of religion as such but a freedom to pursue any act provided they claim it is part of what they think god wants.I am reminded of the case of the father in Massachusetts who was arrested after refusing to leave his sons’ school. Presented (Agape et al) as a parental right to inculcate their children with their religious values, with a “diversity bag” as a red-herring; as the email exchange shows this was actually about a demand that all and any mention of homosexuality — even if it were to arise when another child mentioned their same-sex parents etc in show-and-tell — was to be cut off unless the son was removed/whatever from the class. The school refused, to their credit, as this would not only be disruptive and impractical but in reality would give one parent a veto over the lives of other children (let alone make the school a party to passing those anti-gay attitudes onto those other children).
Imagine if a school was to even agree to those impossible terms — it goes beyond permitting a parent to raise their child in whatever religious tradition they thought fit to a demand that the public life of others always conform to those beliefs.Taliban anyone?
I just noticed while filing something away”Love In Action – Refuge” is LIAR.The Lord works in mysterious ways…
Oh great, I’m not so clever…That obscure blog mentioned has already noticed the LIAR bit.psssssssh… [sound of a person deflating]
LIA/R is all over the map here. Is this religious inculcation, or is it medical treatment? If its the latter, which is the only way it would qualify as a reimbursible expense under medical insurance, then the words of the court in Prince v. Massachusetts have some relevance for the Starks:
“Parents may be free to become martyrs themselves. But it does not follow they are free, in identical circumstances, to make martyrs of their children before they can make that choice for themselves.”
This is very well discussed on Massachusettes Citizens for Children’s webpage Death by Religious Exemption.
And if this kid committs suicide because of depression, whose fault is it? will we have the father dance around the body, like a sick sadistic creep? because from what I have read, he has NO interest in the welfare of his child and everything to do with him keeping his front row pew at church, making himself look good in the community, and fostering more hatred against gay teenagers.
I’ve always wondered, as there ever been a move by a group to create a gay community home as to allow gay teens to come out, and if the worse scenario happens, as the case with Zack, a place where they can live, within a safe environment – like a ‘womens refuge’ but for gays.
I’m just wondering. Can Zach just walk away from the concentration camp in which he is interred? Or would he be siezed and returned to it?
I don’t know what the answer is.
My partner’s grandfather was interred in the Dachau concentration camp in Nazi Germany. That’s why I raise the question.
raj, are referring to Refuge or Zach’s parents’ home? Afterall, his father seems to be hell bent on controlling Zach “until he turns 18 and he’s an adult in the state of Tennessee”.
According to the program’s description, parents are expected to stay in a motel/hotel with their child during the two-week intensive program and six-week extension program. So I don’t think Refuge is fenced compound (although who knows what Smid has planned for the future). Apparently it only takes eight weeks to fix gays.
BTW, just wondering, is this Joe Stark character another one of these anti-gay bloviators? I have no idea who this guy is. But recent experiences with Alan Keyes and other anti-gay characters have made me wonder.
It is interesting that the father is so approving of the strictly controlled atmosphere of LIA, and that goes right to the case of the father mentioned by grantdale. If the only way to protect one’s religious beliefs and avoid “indoctrination” into the “homosexual lifestyle” is to completely eliminate all references and exposure to gay people, how strong exactly are those religious and moral beliefs?
When I was growing up Catholic, we knew there were people of vastly different faiths, even in my own extended family. No one ever thought it was necessary to completely protect me from their presence, to ensure I was not “indoctrinated” into another religion.
I think the real issue is that it is impossible to maintain homophobic teachings, whether religious in nature or not, when confronted by the reality of gay lives. The very boring normality that infuses even the most “perverted” of gay people’s lives (shunting aside the meth-addicted circuit queens for a moment, who are clearly not representative of even young gay people) is the main argument against the sort-of demonization of gay people (e.g., by 30 Zach could be dead or have AIDS).
I think you’ve hit upon a very basic truth, CPT, and I’ve often wondered if that is the whole reason for any kind of objection when gay people are protrayed anywhere in an honest light, whether it be television or real life, or any other media. It’s hard to sustain a meme that is so obviously contra to what folks can see all around them.
Remember David Williams?
He’s the concerned Christian educator who invited an ex gay speaker to his son’s high school to undermine the GSA that gay kids tried to form.
He calls the invitation fairness to equal standing.
Well, Mr. Williams referred me to the speaker.
His name is Chad Thompson.
Info to follow.
There is an article written about Chad, and one he wrote himself.
Chad has a resume filled with speaking engagements at Exodus and other Christian gatherings.
According to the articles, Chad became aware of his homosexuality when he was ten years old.
However, he states he was terrified and knew his soul was damned.
Sounds like a boy who was conditioned by the religious teaching he received, rather than abuse or female dominence influencing his homosexuality.
Chad has written a book and we’ve been exchanging emails.
Chad seems to be blinded to some important issues.
1. That he was terrified, and that’s the whole point of how gay people are motivated to renounce their homosexuality.
2. That because he didn’t just acquire his heterosexuality and enjoy it in private-he went public. In an atmosphere of threat and violence that puts gay kids at risk, the fact that he’s public with his misinformation makes him a sell out to them, and a supporter of a harmful ideology.
3. Zach is clearly an example of coercion and control. What parents, ministers and educators will conspire to do to bend gay kids to their heterosexual will.
4. Chad is of the school that if you approach gay people with the ex gay mantra, but in a nice way, it’s loving gay people.
Chad doesn’t get it. I asked him that if he hadn’t been taught to be terrified, would he have been?
I told him that now that killing or jailing gay people is no longer legal-the only options left for isolation is to enforce conversion by other means.
Fear if the wrath of God to a child is pretty convincing. Abandonment by your own parents is pretty powerful too.
Chad isn’t honest about the fact that love isn’t control and doesn’t require control.
Most of all-I told him that he didn’t have to be terrified of his orientation as child and neither should anyone else.
Anyone interested in our exchanges are welcome to them and I will forward them to you.
I would like to know what you think of my responses to him and David Williams for that matter.
http://www.lovinghomosexuals.com
Another reference:
http://www.Inqueery.com
http://www.LovingHomosexuals.com
Regan,
You’re doing it again —
1. You haven’t documented your claims about David Williams.
2. You haven’t linked to any article about, or by, Chad Thompson. Nor have you linked to any resume of speaking engagements. Then you make claims about the articles that can’t be verified.
3. Then you paraphrase alleged e-mails — without permission, I suspect — denying either us or Thompson the opportunity to see whether your claims about the messages are accurate.
(Either you had permission to make these e-mails public — in which case you must quote the messages, not paraphrase or reinterpret them — or you may not cite their existence at all.)
4. You vaguely state that Thompson recites “the ex gay mantra” but you have quoted nothing by Thompson himself, so there is no mantra for us to assess.
5. Finally, you say Thompson is “dishonest” not because of a falsehood, but because he defines “love” differently than you.
Do’s and Do-Not’s for Regan:
1. Either link directly to all articles that you mention (or at least provide full headline, date, and publication name), or do not mention the article at all.
2. Please do not paraphrase or summarize the views of other people unless you can include direct quotes and cite the exact source (headline, date, newspaper, or book title and page) of the quote. If you have permission to reprint an article or e-mail here, then feel free to do that.
3. Substantiate your own views from third-party sources. Please do not assume that we agree with your definitions of love, gender, sexuality, honesty or justice, or that we even know what your definitions of these things are.
4. Press the Enter or Return key twice between every paragraph.
Many thanks for your cooperation.
Mike
You’re being too hard on Regan in this instance.
Regan DID list the link. The lovinghomosexuals site links to all the Chad crap.
And OF COURSE Regan can have her own view without substantiation from anyone on matters that are entirely subjective (like whether love is or is not control)
But, Regan, I do agree about the paragraph spacing. 🙂
Actually, I find that when I read Regan’s writtings out loud they have a wonderful cadence and rythmn. So enough about the paragraphs already.
I used to believe in all that anti gay crap at one time. I know if it had been me my parents would have kept me in love in action for years if need be to fix the so called mental disorder homosexuality.
The truth of the matter is that people like Pat Robertson are destroyers of people. These types live in a fantasy world of how nature and common sense apply.
There need to be laws against this kind of mental abuse directed at children. Parental rights should not include this type of forced dogmatic insanity. None of what the anti gay people believe has anything to do with God. It is this God fantasy they hide behind that gives them the power to harm others with foolish beliefs. God is nowhere near Pat Robertson. This man a plague on society.
RE: Rory
True, like I said on my blog; does one have to be anti-gay to be spiritually aware? is that the *only* condition attached to being a bona fida Christian?
This is the core problem with Christianity – this fixation upon sex and sexuality when what they should be concentrating on is fostering healthy and honest relationships, preaching chariety and helping those less fortunate.
What is sounds like, however, is its alot easier for the likes of Pat Robertson to scream, rant and rave, unquestioned on his 700 Club rather than rolling up his sleeves and ‘helping his fellow man’.
Earth to Mike (bashing Regan):
Regarding paragraphing, I agree. But she has shown that she isn’t going to change, so I would not press the issue.
Regarding linking, so what? I like to link–but I’m a lawyer. But I know full well that I can link to virtually anything over the internet to support virtually any thesis. Internet links have become mostly crap. I could link to web sites quoting Lyndon Larouche for things–but query. Does that make them any more reliable? I link. I even read links. But I do NOT believe everything that I read that has been linked to over the internet.
Regarding quoting from emails without permission, the sad fact is that the emails, after having been sent out, are public. That’s the whole point of an email. I truly do not understand the issue of “obtaining permission” to reprint the content of an email. I might understand an attribution issue, since it is possible to falsify the originator of the content of the email. And I understand the potential copyright issue, but, if someone sends out an email on an email mailing list to a thousand people, where is the potential economic issue that might give rise to a copyright infringement issue?
The whole story about Zach brings up chilling feelings for me – a refugee in DC from Tennessee.
Unfortunately, things down there happen slowly when it comes to change. As much as I hate to lump good people of faith in with the pseudoreligious, they speak volumes in their silence.
I left Knoxville, TN in 1993 when I had had enough of the oppressive religious/political environment created by the Southern Baptist/Republican alliance. The ones who could get away usually moved to places like Atlanta or further away. I took a big leap of faith when I moved to DC, as I moved with no job and no money, relying on my friends to help me get on my feet once I got here.
I made it, and I could never go back. I pray for Zach’s mental health, and that he too can escape that oppression. I’ve got a futon with his name on it if he can ever escape. I believe it’s important we don’t forget the ones we leave behind.
I think you’re all being too hard on Mike. This is his blog, and he has the right to expect his standards for commenting to be followed. If Regan can’t follow his standards, it isn’t incumbent upon Mike to just drop it, it is incumbent upon Regan to follow the standards, regardless of how the rest of us feel about those standards.
(sigh)
Okay Mike.
I’m not so computer skilled and I offered to forward the emails, because I don’t know how to post them.
I was hoping that someone like raj, or Daniel would respond so that I would know how to articulate the subject better.
David Williams sent the emails we had between us to Chad Thompson. That was his way of introducing me to Chad.
I will say this, I’m learning a lot about the people involved with the ex gay movement on ANY level.
There is no way to have a serious exchange when the response to inquiries is to read the Bible.
I am trying to fulfill the standards of this site. Maybe I just don’t have the skills.
Sometimes I just have an opinion, and sometimes I need that of others.
Especially of the other folks here.
If I come across an article of interest, I’ll just forward it to your email Mike and let you do the rest.
I’ll also forward the emails, for your own perusal and your input to me. If not for posting on XGW.
Fair?
I think you’re all being too hard on Mike. This is his blog, and he has the right to expect his standards for commenting to be followed.
You are indeed correct. This is his blog, and he can set whatever standards he wants regarding posting & commenting. My point was to let him know that demanding links to support every assertion of fact is basically worthless. I could probably find a web page that says that the sun will rise from the west–if not tomorrow, then someday.
Three points regarding Regan. First, she (I assume Regan is a she) is not going to change her paragraphing style. I find it annoying, but not overly so. That’s why I’ve largely dropped the issue.
Two, she makes some interesting points, which is why I read her posts.
Three, do I believe all of the facts that she asserts in her comments, just because she makes them? No. But if I am interested in a topic that she raises, it starts an inquiry. That is one of the interesting aspects about comments on blogs: they can start an inquiry. If you want background facts, try googling.
Hi Peoples!
Found another article (and picture) of Zach at:
http://www.sovo.com
It’s more sources and information about his family.
He’s a cute kid.
Interesting that his father went straight to Pat Robertson. A simpering beast who would tell this father that ‘he done right’ and agree with what this father did.
God forbid someone suggest PFLAG for family harmony.
I’m a she.
A very committed to anti hate advocacy and sometimes imposing, she.
My name, in keeping with my father’s Creek non gender name tradition, named me from Shakespeare’s “King Lear”.
The name means ‘second king’ or ‘prince’.
Yes, a she named Prince.
My father read Shakespeare, the way some people like to say they read the Bible.
As far as he was concerned, Shakespeare held thrall for intrigues and legit philosophy much more compelling than the Bible.
The only other thing that I could read all day as my father would, is “The Prophet” by Kahlil Gibran, a Catholic.
I may not get the paragraph format right, and if I slip up on links, forgive me.
Where it matters, I seem to be living up to a prophecy told to me by a Druid priest, of all things.
That I’d be a barren warrior woman, and a champion for those who had none. That I would be recognized by who needed me, even if I didn’t see it in myself.
That I would find the way.
In spite of being woefully without gaydar, no gay child, parent or sibling.
My destiny found me.
Now I’m really kinda sorry I laughed in Rick’s face when he said all that.
No, Regan, he is not a kid. He is a nice looking young man.
I seriously don’t understand this. When I was his age, I was hell to pay for my parents. I didn’t know why, but I was. Why are Zach’s parents not willing to stand by him through this difficult portion of his life? Hold him, hug him, and let him know that they’ll stand by him, regardless of what direction he choses.
Seriously, what is it with these people that they cannot hold a young man, say that they will stand by him no matter what, and carress him and enter him into the community.
As far as I’m concerned, there is a very strange thing going on.
RE: Regan
I had a look, yes, he is a cute kid, and unfortunately his father has ‘other plans’, mainly to wreck his life in such a way where by he (his father) can live his life through his child.
It seems to me, that the *ONLY* parents who have a problem with a gay child are the type who want a min clone of themsleves; when their son or daughter isn’t a mini-clone of themselves (by the fact that they’re gay), they see their child as a failure for not living up to their expectations, namely, try to live their life through their child.
I, however, I love this quote, and summed it up quite nicely ( https://www.sovo.com/blog/index.cfm?type=blog&start=7/10/05&end=7/17/05#1589 ):
But can you imagine the uproar that would result if a gay couple sent their straight child to a camp so that the child could be reprogrammed to be gay? If the parents claimed they were following their religious beliefs, would that make their actions seem any less outrageous?
I had a look, yes, he is a cute kid, and unfortunately his father has ‘other plans’, mainly to wreck his life in such a way where by he (his father) can live his life through his child.
Just to remind you, this is the same problemmo that Little League baseball, youth soccor, youth hockey and other youth sports have. In some areas, they’ve had to ban the parents from attending the games because the parents keep beating up on the kids if they fail to “deliver.” The parents are living their fantasy lives through their kids. So the kids don’t have any lives of their own.
It’s weird. And something has got to stop it. When I was a kid, I wanted my dad & mom to be proud of me. But I really wanted just to have fun. If my dad & mom wanted to beat up on me or somebody else because I did not live up to their expectations, I would have been appalled.
I referred to him as being a “young man” for a reason. A 16 year old is not a “kid” as far as I’m concerned. He might be a minor for some legal purposes, but he is not a kid.
RE: Raj
True, I sometimes wonder about these parents; we have these idiots crap on about how terrible gay parents are, and yet, in the same breath, they’re quite happy to ignore the litany of emotional damage that parents leave behind in their wake as they raise their children.
Maybe I was lucky with my parents, all they expected me to be was to do the best that I could do, according to my abilities; as my father said, if you only have the level of intellgience to be a bus driver, your aim should be to be the *best* bus driver.
The New York Times‘ Sunday Fashion and Style section covers the Love In Action controversy in an article by Alex Williams. The article provides an overview of the Zach’s story. NYT declined to identify Zach’s family’s name and Zach’s parents declined to be interviewed.
Although the article states that Smid “declined to discuss the details of Zach’s experience, citing the program’s confidentiality rules”, Smid implies that the opposition against LIA may abuse Zach:
“‘All of a sudden, 80,000 Internet hits later on our Web site, the world has decided that he should be freed,’ Mr. Smid said. ‘Maybe he didn’t ask for this. Maybe he doesn’t really have the personality that really is going to be able to deal with this. And they talk about our “abuse” of him.'”
The article includes former LIA participants who are now identify gay. Brandon Tidwell, who seems to be becoming a major spokesman against LIA, describes the program “like checking into prison”. Jeff Harwood states that eight of the 11 former members he knows are gay.
Ben Marshall, an 18-year-old LIA graduate defends LIA, but admits the “‘high rate of failure” and is qouted, “In all honesty, I’m just trying to figure out how to deal normally with men before I start to deal with women.”
Unfortunately, the article qouted Joe Smith’s comments from the CBN article, but left out his more outrageous qoute:
“We felt good about Zach coming here. To let him see for himself the destructive lifestyle, what he has to face in the future.” [omitted: “and to give him some options that society doesn’t give him today,” Stark said. “Knowing that your son… statistics say that by the age of 30 he could either have AIDS or be dead.”]
The article mentions that, “Zach is due to leave the program next week”
And here the news is full of the basis for the terror bombings in London and Madrid.
They are finding that the London bombers were suicide bombers and that they were born and raised in England of parents of Pakistani and they say one of Jamaican origin.
They all might have attended the same mosque or training camp…of course this is all ‘faith based’ indoctrination.
The intractability of religious mind control, can make even a Western born and educated young person violently take his own life and that of his neighbors.
The religious intractability here in America, can make a gay young (or one thought to be) be brutalized.
A man kill his three year old son, or teens commit suicide.
Religious moral certainty can make a President rework the Constitution or stack the courts or ignore the rights of law abiding gay citizens or the take the control of a woman’s reproductive organs away from her.
We see religious mind control all over the map, and yet….groups like Exodus or LIA don’t see in themselves the same rejection of logic or reason or legitimate science, and are just as willing to compromise the civil rights of ‘the stranger’ as their Islamo terrorist counterparts.
Oh no, they’d deny it in a heartbeat.
But the similarities are undeniable and oh so scary.
Regan,
Huh??
The Zach story has hit the NYTImes
Gay Teenager Stirs a Storm
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/fashion/sundaystyles/17ZACH.html
I haven’t read it yet, but I wanted to alert you to it.
kaiwai at July 16, 2005 11:28 AM
I seriously do not understand these hetero adults.
There was an incident here in Massachusetts, in which one father of a kid playing on a hockey team murdered another father of a kid playing on an opposing team. It’s weird. It wasn’t an isolated incident, similar things have happened since, but they didn’t result in death. Adult heteros seem to be living their lives through their children. And it’s a shame.
When I was a kid, I just wanted my dad to be proud of me. And he was. He stood by me, even though I was probably one of the most horrible kids on earth. And, he knew, I was likely to be gay. Did that bother him? Apparently not. (My younger brother outed me to them, unbeknownst to me. And, no it was not a vicious outing) But my father stood by me, anyway.
What is it with Zach’s parents that they want to villify him?
RE: raj at July 17, 2005 06:18 AM
Its sad that that those things occur; when people ask, “what are gay people created for” – maybe its evolution producing people who can do the parenting job properly as a matter of choice, rather than it being forced upon them because of an ‘accident’.
As for Zach’s parents; as I said, it I were there, I would love to give the young adult the opportunity to finish highschool, go to university and make something of himself; all this parents are keen to achieve is to break this child into something they find palatable.
These parents are typical of Christians – their superiority complex, coupled with a complete intollerance of anything that does fit their cookie cutter view of the world, and why aren’t I surprised at all.
Want to know the sad part, Zach probably has alot of potential, music, art; he could be the next Bach, but unfortunately, he will never be able to express his talent because his parents will consider it being ‘gay’ by showing emotions.
Want to know the sad part, Zach probably has alot of potential, music, art; he could be the next Bach, but unfortunately, he will never be able to express his talent because his parents will consider it being ‘gay’ by showing emotions.
Don’t limit it. He–or others like him–could be a scientist of Einstein distinction.
My father was so proud of me because I, in 1965, as a boy sprout was in the boy sprout troup that was awarded the metallurgy merit badge. He was so proud of us, although I’m sure that he knew that I was “different”. I placed out of the first year in college via Advanced placement (math, chem and english) and I was 17 at the time.
I sincerely do not understand the issues that these parents have with their children.
It’s the assumption that all people are ‘meant’ to be heterosexual that is so destructive.
I am so sickened by the wasted potential or compromise to what could be brilliance because of this persistent prejudice.
My friend who is now the police officer was brutally beaten and nearly killed by his own older brother and father. They knocked him through a plate glass window that resulted in a nick to an artery in his arm.
They were going to let him bleed to death, but a neighbor heard the commotion and rescued him.
He was in the hospital and his mother told him to never come home again.
He was only fourteen at the time, outed by being caught kissing another boy.
He was homeless for a short while and made his way to NYC and fortunately was taken off the streets by DCS before something else likely to be fatal happened.
He’s so brave and strong and loves his job with the LAPD.
When a Point Foundation rep came to speak at PFLAG he brought two brilliant young gay men (teens still) along with him who overcame horrendous hardship, but qualified for prestigious colleges.
How many gay kids attend Juilliard, or Harvard?
I know several in the UCLA Medical school.
Look at all the committed and talented soldiers we’ve had in every war effort, who are still courageous enough to serve in spite of everything.
Gay peace officers and firefighters….if you’re bleeding or your house is on fire, what’s the point in getting hinkty about if your rescuer is gay or not?
I don’t think I can emphasize enough that our lives together, gay or not-is not at odds, one side bad, the other good.
We are and always have been symbiotic to each other, fused as human beings.
We are a pretty basic species, and what we ARE is simple.
What we can do that is brilliant is complex. But all too often I wonder at what we would have been if there had never been sexism, racism, homophobia or xenophobia in our world?
Perhaps in the ancient world, we know it was there.
But in this century…why do such things persist and at our peril?
Gay peace officers and firefighters….if you’re bleeding or your house is on fire, what’s the point in getting hinkty about if your rescuer is gay or not?
Good question, actually, Quite frankly, one might ask the same question about, say, artificial respiration administered by a gay–or black–person to a white hetero. The air is the same.
Mike, in answer to the former post…
There are milder forms of religious intractibility (ex gay ministry, subjugation of women to wives and mothers) and then there are the religious fascists who can convince a young person to strap on a bomb and kill himself and his own neighbors and fellow soccer players.
Either way, they all think they are moral, right and in charge of everyone else’s life.
I wrote that before I’d had my coffee.
My bad.
[expletives deleted]
Hi cowAs you’ll undoubtably find out — Mike A. will accomodate that view but not that language…Want to try writing that again? Nicely.
Okay…Mike, what I said about Islam and all the fundies?
There is a soul sickening picture on Wayne Besen’s site that he got from Andrew Sullivan’s site.
It’s a picture of two Iraqui teen boys, just BOYS about to be hung for homosexuality.
I can’t stop crying and the lynch parties that were a staple in the Jim Crow South.
I know they are kids….because they HAVE NO BEARDS!!!
In Islam, you’re either unmarried or still a kid if you don’t have one.
Maybe I AM incoherent sometimes…
But this picture says a thousand words and I’m a crying, babbling mess right now.
Black boys were hung for social control and the unjustified paranoia and hostility of whites.
It IS the same all over again for gay people!
I can hardly take this picture…and I’m a forensic photographer.
I have to be cool and collected at work. But I’m at home now, so I’ll cry if I want to.
Okay….several deep breaths later…
I’ve been doing research for a literary project about the killing of Emmett Till and therefore have encountered a lot of horrific pictures of Southern lynching victims.
The hanging of these Iraqui boys is no less so and all for the same reason.
I have in front of me too, a picture of a former Marine who served in Iraq. He’s gay and signed up post 9/11.
If this sort of thing goes on in Iraq against gay people, I can take Bush to task for this reason.
His lack of respect for gay soldiers and their’s to the effort in Iraq.
If they went over to defend gay kids from lynching, or women from Sh’ria law…more power to them.
However, Bush is too much of an unitelligable weasel to articulate any of this-because he seems more on the side of urban terrorists than on that of gay people.
Even though gay people are now showing their MORAL authority by protecting a President and his way of life and all Americans, without any show of reciprocity from him or their fellow citizens.
Blacks used to get affronted that way by an arrogated and ungrateful populace too-especially during WW2.
Doing the right thing by eliminating institutional bigotry took a long time.
And maybe too late…otherwise inner cities wouldn’t be segregated war zones as well.
We should have learned from this history that we can’t afford to affront any talented citizens in this way because of what they ARE.
Maybe Bush flunked history in his little preppy schools where he didn’t attend with black people or gays that he knew of.
Justice will come and vindicate-this is why I told Chad we need some strong soldiers out there.
Our President was never like that and never served his own country with what it really takes.
He doesn’t know his real enemy because he’s never confronted one.
Not really.
If justice will ever be served, maybe sometime soon…he will.
Hi ReganI’ll help out with the link to that nauseating image Gay teens executed in IranBTW: it’s IraN, although there are certainly reports about lynchings of gay men in IraQ. ditto Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Pakistan, the West Bank, Lebanon, Algeria, Zimbabwe, Brazil… Common factor — none, except for the anti-gay mob attitude and a desire to “exgay” their society by some.
The original photos from the Iran mediaPhoto 1Photo 2Photo 3God almighty.
Thanks for the correction grantdale.
I don’t think my emotions were misplaced in the least. The gay boys and girls I work with might look at something like that, coupled with the actual murders of gay teens here in the US, add that to what their President supports and how the religious right behaves and surely and rightly, be very afraid.
These executed boys were handsome, clean cut…one wonders if the flimsiest of accusations got them killed.
Due process, unlikely.
Human rights protections, or an advocate? No way.
That Muslims are a huge population gives one pause.
The violent minority of Islamo fascists, also too has the non violent part of that religion cowed, silent and non retaliating.
Good people will do nothing, as so far they haven’t against the violent factions in their midst.
Children and fellow citizens being incinerated by
stealth human bombs while at worship or being handed sweets by American soldiers.
Yes, this lion eats it’s own children…
Interesting blog (I’m a first-time visitor).
Of course, whatever the problems of the Iranian justice system with its execution of gay youth (among other problems), let us also not forget the American serviceman in Iraq who killed, without law or trial, an Iraqi guardsman on station with him after they engaged in consensual sex because the American “freaked out”. Islamo-fascists, indeed. In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Kaiwai, please don’t assume all Christians are like Pat Robertson (who at least is involved with the One Campaign, the US version of England’s Make Poverty History, cite – he’s in the TV adverts). Some of us actually get the idea that God so loved *the whole world*!
Zach has been in my prayers. Glad to hear he might be free soon. I pray that Zach will be free to be who God made him to be and not have to act like others want him to act.
To thy own self be true.
Kaiwai, please don’t assume all Christians are like Pat Robertson
No they aren’t. I know that full well. But it is astouding to me that more of them are not willing to stand up and say “this shall end.”
I’m quite serious about that. There is a serious problem in the American christian churches that needs to be corrected. And I see no effort among the liberals or even centrists in the various houses of worship to try to correct it.
To thy own self be true.
That has been my philosophy.
Raj says: I’m quite serious about that. There is a serious problem in the American christian churches that needs to be corrected. And I see no effort among the liberals or even centrists in the various houses of worship to try to correct it.
I would agree with this statement if before the ‘effort among the liberals…’ you would insert the word ‘serious’. I see no serious effort by liberals or centrists to deal with this problem.
Before everyone jumps on me, let me say that I do see liberals and centrists starting groups of their own. The idea behind which is to emulate the methods used by the loons who have hijacked the Christian faith. But I do not see the same liberals and centrists confronting the problem. Or the people creating it.
All of which strikes me as ineffectual and counterproductive. There are more than enough groups within the Christian faith already. What seems to be lacking is the will on the part of l&c’s to directly confront the loons in their own language and methodology. Which AFAICT means screaming, yelling, throwing things and being totally in their face. Like a moderate Christian ACTUP or Operation Rescue.
Until the l&c faction is willing to disrupt conservative churches, they will get nowhere. IMHO. The program being offered, ‘weak tea and social work’ really does not address the problem. Shutting down the hate churches on a local level does. Just my opinion.
RE: Str8 Christian girl at July 22, 2005 11:28 PM
Kaiwai, please don’t assume all Christians are like Pat Robertson (who at least is involved with the One Campaign, the US version of England’s Make Poverty History, cite – he’s in the TV adverts). Some of us actually get the idea that God so loved *the whole world*!
Oh pulease, Pat Robertson was there to make up the numbers and to make his sham religion not look like such a fabulous piece of tax fraud.
Where are the Christians where Zach was pulled away to this indoctrination camp? where were the Christians trying to push the legal processes to get him emancipated from his parents?
All it seems to be, there seems to be alot of talk, hollow words and broken promises in the Christian community – its all talk, no action.
Zach has been in my prayers. Glad to hear he might be free soon. I pray that Zach will be free to be who God made him to be and not have to act like others want him to act.
As I see it, his parents were blessed by god with a son; by sending their child to that brain washing camp, they’ve literally thrown the gift god gave them, and said, “we don’t want him, we want someone better”.
I recently sent an email to info@loveinaction.org Asking this: “I have heard through various articles and news papers that you organization uses methods such as Isolation and solitary confinement amont other thisgs in order to “cure” Homosexuality. how does this hel someone who may also be clinically depressed as many gay teens are? Please respond to this question honestly.”
I haven’t gotten aresponce yet but I am interested in what their response will be.