Ex-Gay Watch

Proof: PFOX..and organization that Haley Ray supports, filed an amicus brief against the overturning of Prop. 8 in California. Prop. 8 is an amendment to the CA Constitution that put a ban on ss marriage.

The governor and AG of CA refuse to appeal, on the basis of it’s unConstitutionality. Judge Walker has been attacked and there are accusations his decision was biased when his orientation was revealed.

What PFOX and Exodus have shown, is that they are not content with any compassionate outreach to gay people who want to change orientation.
But they want to be assured that discriminatory laws remain in place against gay people.

Ultimate proof that they are full of s**t when it comes to addressing the needs of gay people and giving them an ‘alternative.’

There IS no alternative to living free and having equal rights. You either have them or you don’t. And when you specifically and undeniably want to keep those equal civil protections and rights from gay people…then you’re interests are clear also.

This is a fair characterization of ex gays and their straight supporters Anne. Gay people aren’t and never have been interested in taking anything away from anyone else.
And gay people being treated equally takes nothing away from ex gays at all.

An ex gay can be free to be that if they want to.
But when they engage in taking something from gay people in the socio/political arena, in the civil law arena. All bets are off and you don’t get the benefit of the doubt.

This amicus brief and other political actions by Exodus, PFOX and so on are exactly what we’re talking about.
No justice and equality for gay people, then you’re called out on the lies you’re telling.

And please, none of this ‘but I don’t vote against gay people, I don’t do it, I don’t have anything to do with it.’
If you throw in with orgs that do, then yes, you’re doing what they are.

See Anne. This is pretty much a no b******t zone.
When you try selling it here, and we reject it, then…it’s your problem and should be.

@anne
Anne,

I appreciate your comments and they were very clear to me, even if Dave and Regan could not accept them as your own heartfelt and well-thought-out expression. When you first posted, I was hopeful that you would be treated with a bit more respect than I have been. What I have discovered is that you have to be in total agreement here or you become a target. If you had agreed with everything Regan and others have said, you would be receiving pats on the back rather than ducking from potshots. Somehow or another, just because my sexual pathway did not come out as they wish it had, I’ve been held responsible for all kind of things, including Jim Crow laws and everything bad that ever happened to gay people . . . something I would never wish for or condone, as they would know if they were to read the writing on my blog.

I wish it were not so, but this is not a place to share differing opinions or to have rational discussions. To their credit, they stick very closely to their positions and they are adept at shutting down any other.

I think what I have said here is pretty clear . . . but it always awaits the Regan interpretation.

Thom

Anne: a few comments”

” highly sensitive and thoughtful individual who is lambasted here because he has taken his personal journey in a different direction than others here have. ”

No, it was becuase of his support for an organization that has done and continues to do a great deal of damage.

“you will understand him more, and maybe hate him less. ”

Noone hates him. But we understand him, perhaps all too well.

“So I can imagine, and therefore sympathize with, the horrible plight of trying to change your very strongly-oriented sexual tendencies. And I can see why you staunchly defend the normalcy and the right of your birth-given tendencies to thrive normally in society.”

“We are humans and have great biologic variability. Just as sexual orientation has been found to be on a continuum, so would the ability to re-orient be on a continuum. Just because it might be impossible for you or me to re-orient, doesn’t mean there isn’t a percentage of the population (Thom included) for which it is possible. ”

Except that there isn’t the slightest bit of anything resembling proof that this is possible, and the sheer number of ex-exgays argues against it. I don’t dispute that it is possible, but as has been commented here many times, the goalposts of what constitutes change, are in constant motion. I agree with you: humans are vastly complicated, and a great deal is possible. but to say that something is possible does not mean that it is, has, or will occur.

You show complete understanding here.

” anger and outrage at his belief system”

You are correct– almost. It’s what his belief system does to innocent people who do not share those beliefs.

@Thom Hunter
Thom, I repeat,
You do NOT have to be in total agreement with me. Disagreement is a healthy thing. But gay folks don’t get to agree with their own sexual orientation without being punished and maligned for it.
And you behaving as if it’s not true or what actually happens to gay people, is dishonest. And dishonesty and recognizing it, isn’t disagreeing with you.

It’s naming facts and the truth and being honest about it. That’s all.
I don’t have to believe b******t when I see it, and what makes you think I should?
And mores the point, how small are you to not even own up to that being what it is?

Instead, you throw a pity party for yourself and assess that we MUST have everyone agree with us.

PFOX did file an amicus brief for the appeal that Prop. 8 be upheld. That’s not about disagreeing, that’s about the truth of what happens when gay people get a little more freedom and self reliance in their lives.

If the ex gay industry backed off from supporting discrimination, and ONLY lent their energies to helping gay people…then we WOULD be in agreement.

But that’s not what happens.

This is why your indictment of me, and the majority here is what makes you look weak Thom. You’re not owning what you keep insisting on.

You’re in a tight spot aren’t you? You can’t get out of this one, but blaming us sure isn’t going to cut it, but I’m not surprised you’d do that.

Too bad Anne can’t produce any convincing evidence that anyone can or ever has changed their sexual orientation. It just doesn’t exist. In the Prop 8 trial, these lies just fell apart. On the stand, someone making that sort of an assertion would have to back it up. They couldn’t. Anne can’t.

Ah, now it’s down to me, then hunh Thom? “The Regan Interpretation” must be something like the “Militant Homosexual Agenda.”

Wow.
I suppose maybe it’s because as a woman, and a black person, I can empathize fully with gay people and their struggles with systemic bigotry and discrimination. It’s happened to me personally.
I’ve seen women in my former profession as a dancer, succumb to anorexia and it’s attendant damage for trying to fit into a standard of beauty that’s unrealistic for most people.

Black people have scars on their scalps and hair pulled too tight, trying to have straight hair.
Conformity to an ‘ideal’ standard doesn’t respect genetic legitimacy and easily disqualifies character for superficial aesthetics.
Trying to conform isn’t new.

But the reason for that conformity can’t be ignored with regard to gay lives. Your pity party about holding you solely responsible for troubles of gay people is stupid and not even true for my part.

I have said over and over that support of organizations that DO interfere with gay lives is the problem. THEY are responsible, and you…partly so, if you agree with THEM.

We here, as anyone fully understanding of historical and political context, would wonder and SHOULD question you.

Just as any sensible person would question the conversion of a Jew from Judaism, who went on to support anti Semitic policies that were dangerous to Jews.

Would you?
Wouldn’t you question someone who insists on having all the answers and truth about being Jewish, but who was a non Jewish anti Semitic?

Then why are YOU believing those who have plans for your life, that don’t include you having equal freedoms as a gay person?

Thom, I don’t have to disagree with you. You are a contradiction unto yourself. I don’t have to do a thing, but call into question the content of your character, and here comes the poor Thom, all these big bad people are picking on me because I don’t agree with them.

You don’t have to agree with us Thom. You just can’t lie, be dishonest or b******t us.
Big difference.
Man up about that.

Questions Thom:
Do you agree that systemic discrimination is wrongful against gay men and women?

Do you agree that gays and lesbians deserve Constitutional protections guaranteed to them?
Especially protection from tyranny by a majority?

Do you agree that religious belief is a matter of individual freedom, not civil discrimination against those who cannot, do not and aren’t involved in that religion?

Do you agree, that ex gay ministries, should remain apolitical and not engage in supporting policies, candidates or laws that discriminate against gay people?

Fair questions. Because that’s all I’m concerned about. I really truly don’t give a rat’s a*s that you want to be hetero. Why wouldn’t you want to be? It’s easier, it’s more accepted and nobody will notice you to judge and discriminate against you.

Just don’t be hetero at gay folk’s at the expense of their civil rights or freedoms and equal rights and opportunity.

Fair?

Years ago a female teen relative of mine nosedived into eveything gay. I wasn’t aware of it until I saw her pictures on FB. And yes I jumped right into lecture mode over and over again. She professed to me that she is what she is and nothing will change that. Her Mother promptly took her for psychiatric counseling and was advised to just let it go. This went on for a couple years. Today she is with male partner and 2 yr old son. So I’m not up for any debates on whether people can change or not. Had this girl followed the gay lead, which there certainly is plenty of, she would not be a Mother today or at least not with her son’s Father. The mind is what complicates this entire issue. Unfortunately the medical profession prefers to cater to activism rather than get down to the business of healing for those who really want it. That’s why the only thing left to turn to for guidance is the book that we’ve had all along.

Right Haley Ray….
YOU dictated the terms of what this girl was going to be the second you found out. And the whole family got in on it.
She didn’t stand a chance. You patting yourself on the back is disgusting.

You know the anti gay sentiment in this country, all the way up the chain of elected offices, judicial branches and education all favor you COERCING a young person into what you think you’re entitled to dictate when you feel like it.
Being heterosexual isn’t an ‘alternative’ to a gay person.
But you not being gay, you couldn’t care less, and NEVER DID, what a gay person thinks or feels.

You got your young relative at a time when few young people have gotten their heads around what it will mean to their lives and their own goals and self determination how they will be happy on their terms.

This relative of yours had to do things on YOUR terms. You didn’t give a s**t about her.
You didn’t.
At least own up to the fact that you didn’t.

She could have still had a life partner, and a beautiful baby WITHOUT doing it heterosexually.
And she could have ended up single, alone and never had a child like so many HETEROSEXUALS too.
Plenty of heterosexuals have relationship problems, children that end up badly, and busted marriages all over the place.

Her orientation wouldn’t have mattered in that regard Haley. That’s the point.

What matters is the systemic prejudice, bigotry and discrimination that damages gay lives so that gaining independence and self reliance is made impossible or very difficult.

My concern is the anti gay sentiment that kids and adults bully with.
You have revealed that you bullied your relative in the guise of concern for her welfare.
When really, you wanted to have total control over HER choices for herself.
How the hell do you call it having a choice, when you were all over her in a heartbeat?
Having a choice would have been for you and your family to leave her alone to find her own way.

No one chooses to be gay, or hetero for that matter. And you’re dishonest if you think this experience with your relative was a matter of her having a choice.
You’re came in here loaded with BS Haley.
And I’m calling you on it.

What about discriminatory policies that leave no room for a gay person to be honest, be themselves and not have mau maus like you breathing down their necks all the time?
What about THAT?
Do they get to have the choice in you leaving them the hell alone?

@John
I do know people who changed their orientation. That’s why I’m intrigued by this message board and this topic. I agree that they’re in the minority, but they did change. One went from heterosexual (never thought of herself as otherwise) to homosexual when she became involved with a woman, and it evolved into a long-term lesbian relationship. I guess one might now qualify her as “bisexual.” But the label is silly…. The point is that she thought of herself as “heterosexual” and now thinks of herself as “homosexual.”

I know another person who thought of herself as heterosexual, then fell in love with her
best female friend, got married to her, created a child together, and then fell in love with a man she met in dance class. (This is a sad story; ended in a nasty break-up.) But she is now married to the man. Again, it sounds like she is “bisexual.” But she changed her orientation twice.

My point is that sexuality is on a continuum. If someone tips more towards one orientation, but has the potential to focus his/her energies on the other orientation…. things can happen.

I totally agree that these “ex-gay” groups can be harmful and destructive. What I’m wondering, though: Are they absolutely, unilaterally, always destructive, to every person who seeks them out? If Thom feels that he has been helped in a positive, healthy, authentic way, then how can someone else deny that? One really can’t judge another, or claim that another is lying to himself. You just don’t know what’s inside another’s soul.

Regan DuCasse :
Questions Thom:
Do you agree that systemic discrimination is wrongful against gay men and women?
Do you agree that gays and lesbians deserve Constitutional protections guaranteed to them?
Especially protection from tyranny by a majority?
Do you agree that religious belief is a matter of individual freedom, not civil discrimination against those who cannot, do not and aren’t involved in that religion?
Do you agree, that ex gay ministries, should remain apolitical and not engage in supporting policies, candidates or laws that discriminate against gay people?
Fair questions. Because that’s all I’m concerned about. I really truly don’t give a rat’s a*s that you want to be hetero. Why wouldn’t you want to be? It’s easier, it’s more accepted and nobody will notice you to judge and discriminate against you.
Just don’t be hetero at gay folk’s at the expense of their civil rights or freedoms and equal rights and opportunity.
Fair?

Well said.

@Regan DuCasse
I’m way behind here… Was out all day after I wrote in here….

To answer your question “What choice do gay people have?”

My observation is: Many (most?) people do not have a choice. But there is a small percentage who indeed have a choice. This goes for heterosexuals and homosexuals.

Sexual orientation is on a continuum, and is therefore not black-and-white for everyone.

It’s interesting: Just my statement of the above is causing me to be grossly misunderstood and mischaracterized here. It just so happens that I totally believe in kindness, compassion, and equality for all. In fact I posted a youtube video on my Facebook page today from the “It gets better” campaign.

The only reason I wrote into this website is because I thought the attacks on Thom were harsh, and because it looked to me (an outsider) that no one was really hearing what he said. I could read and understand what you said, and get where you were coming from, but I am also able to hear what he said. It doesn’t look like I have a lot of company here in that regard, though.

I wrote in because I saw people lumping Thom into “EVIL” category, and presuming to know his entire agenda and his “ilk.” But I see a much more nuanced picture of him, and of people who might be in his shoes. You can’t judge a man till you’ve walked in his shoes.

Ben in Oakland :
” anger and outrage at his belief system”
You are correct– almost. It’s what his belief system does to innocent people who do not share those beliefs.

Good point. I have to think about this one.
Funny thing is, the reason I even started exploring this issue is because I’ve always been so fervently in agreement with the opinions expressed on this website. And only recently was I myself able to see the other side of the picture (Thom’s side). And because of this new open-mindedness I’ve found myself in, I’m poking around the web out of curiosity.

The thing is: I had a real anti-Christianity bias before. I had a real bias against the “horrible” notion that someone could change their sexual orientation.

Only recently did I realize: for some people, and Thom is an example of one, Christianity truly uplifts them and helps them. For some people, they feel empowered, and not shamed, by the notion of change. For some people, it is POSSIBLY possible. Maybe this is the case for only for 10 people in the world. But for those 10 people– is it fair to look upon them with disdain?

Anne,

Vague anectdotes about a person who previously had sex with women being married to a man with a child are not evidence of sexual orientation change. The person could just be bisexual, in which case nothing has really changed other than the current partner.

Please provide the references to peer reviewed, reproducible studies that show that people can actually change the sexual orientation, not just the behavior or current partner. The evidence doesn’t exist, and I am not going to nicely go along with you pretending that people can change the sexual orientation no matter how many anonymous bisexuals you thow out.

In the Prop 8 trial, they had every opportunity to present the data. They didn’t, because they couldn’t. No such data exists supporting the idea that people can change their sexual orientation.

@David Roberts
Certainly not my intent to be irritating here, David. I’ll be more careful about following the rules if I choose to make any more comments. I’ll admit that I had hoped the links might lead someone to actually visit the blog, but the motivation was not to increase traffic. I can just tell that people who have been commenting about me do so from a stereotyping mindset, rather than from any knowledge of me as a person. I thought I would make it easier, if anyone cared, by linking my name to the blog, where they could actually find out more about me. The blog gets ample traffic, so increasing it was not the intent. It’s a personal blog, not one on which one makes money.

@David Roberts
I believe that one’s orientation can change, but I believe that based on the fact that I believe that with Christ all things are possible. That may sound simple, but it is true, although believing that might be difficult for a non-Christian who would have to put his faith somewhere else, perhaps even in himself.

Now, as for myself? I don’t believe I was ever actually oriented as a homosexual. It was the first sexual expression to which I was exposed and, though it never seemed natural to me personally, it was pleasurable and I pursued it. As I matured mentally and spiritually, I believed it was not right for me. I can’t speak for others’ personal experiences. However, if someone comes to me and shares the same belief — that God does not want them to be gay — I certainly offer support and encouragement, based on what I believe the Bible says. Telling them they have no choice, when their faith tells them they do, is wrong.

I know I originally came on here weeks ago to say that I support Exodus. I still do. Is it perfect? No. But, nothing I have seen on here gives me any indication you guys have it all together either. I don’t believe Exodus is the boogie man you make it out to be. You like to point to it as a political machine cranking out the chains you think surround you. I’ve not seen that.

When I need evidence that change is possible, I examine my own life, not someone else’s.

Thom,

Something like ability to change sexual orientation is either true or it isn’t true. This really isn’t about belief. If it is true, then show us the evidence through reproducible peer reviewed studies.

Further, you go on to say that you were never homosexual. If that is the case, it would seem that you have nothing to really offer people who might desperately want to change the sexual orientation in order to fit into the demands of their family or religious group. You say you haven’t changed your sexual orientation, and you have provided no evidence of academic expertise or knowledge about the area of sexual orientation change (or more appropriately the lack thereof).

Since you now claim you were never gay, never changed your sexual orientation and essentially have no academic backround in the subject, you last line is even more perplexing. You haven’t changed, but you can look at your own life for evidence that change is possible, despite the lack of change of sexual orientation. Perhaps you should just give it up.

Hi Anne, truly, I appreciate your comments. They have been well thought out. I would like to point out that Thom isn’t being attacked. He’s been disingenuous and self pitying, and we are frank about that.
And, as I’ve said, I can empathize more than he wants me to say, from the political standpoint and the legacy of what happens when straight people assume gay people can and should change.
That puts the onus of doing so at the expense of ordinary freedom and self reliance and self acceptance for that matter.
My point in asking what choice to gay people have, was in fact to say that gay people don’t have a choice to be gay, if the spectre and expectation for them to change is present.

This is disruptive of parent/child relationships, romantic ones and professional ones as well.
How many men and women have had their marriages destroyed over one thinking they can change the other and the crushing disappointment of one, leads to divorce?

Expecting a gay person to change, especially through an op sex marriage is a monumental expectation and an unfair burden on both parties to accomplish it.
Something that Haley Ray clearly doesn’t appreciate.

Gay people are pressured to be heterosexual. The inverse isn’t true of what gay people want to do or what they want heteros to do.
So, there isn’t a choice Anne.

Most of us struggle for identity, connection and healthy social networks. It’s confining and narrow for religious communities especially to say that gay people can’t freely associate with each other and ONLY being heterosexual is the better way to live.

And unless you isolate a gay person from experiencing what contradicts that, the lie in that is obvious.
As I said, heteros get treated better, they aren’t better people.

The incentive to be hetero is there, but there isn’t a lot of point in becoming one in order to look down on others.
Which IS essentially the aim of Exodus.

I’m more concerned with the civil and Constitutional laws.
And the sorts of bigotry that assumes gay people are inferior and don’t deserve to be recognized as who they really are.

I already had an exchange with Haley that showed she’s exceptionally fearful, ignorant and selfish.
She doesn’t have to agree with me either.
But others shouldn’t have to pay for how little she understands about gay people.

@Regan DuCasse
Regan,

You are so adept at labeling people. I don’t think you’re frank at all. Just dismissive. “Disingenuous and self-pitying?” That’s pretty ridiculous, Regan, but perhaps if I were in your position as defender, I might use the same darts of desperation. And let’s see, Haley is “fearful, ignorant and selfish.” And I guess both of us are bigots? And religious “communities” are generally “confining and narrow?” I think you greatly overestimate the numbers of people who “pressure” gay people to be heterosexual, although I admit it does go on in families and is usually a sign that the family members do not understand the underlying issues. I’ve never assumed a gay person to be inferior, so please consider me an exception to your stereotyping.

You didn’t see how she treated me on her FB page, Thom. And she deleted the exchange, so you couldn’t see for yourself.
She ACTED, I REACTED.

Know the difference.
Thom do you think my experience with ex gays began with just you? Do you think I made it up about groups like NOM, the ADF and FRC and what they point to as reasons to deny equality?
Instead of me labeling you. I’ll question you. And you’re free to answer them.

Why would you think I ‘greatly’ overestimate the numbers of people who pressure gay people to be heterosexual?
And why WOULD I think that?

As for your last sentence, you are personalizing something that I stated as a fact in socio/political context. A matter of public policies.
These are not a matter of opinion Thom. They exist for a specific purpose that effectively harms gay people.
You personalizing something when I make such comments is a symptom of how self involved you can be.
To not discuss this issue in that context is a symptom of dis ingenuousness.

You “admit pressure to be hetero goes on in families and is usually a sign that the family does not understand the underlying issues.”
No s**t.
And just how is someone who is an adolescent going to respond to that pressure? What choices would they have to resist it?
What do you think happens to them, when they DO resist the pressure?

Public policies are not a stereotype. Neither are the people who support them. And yes, the most fundamentalist and Christianist communities ARE narrow and confining for gay people.

Haley Ray erased evidence of her responses, not only to me, but to my background and challenge to her own narrow definitions of what she thinks she knows.

Projecting onto me, won’t change what you’ve revealed about yourself, Thom.
Let’s begin again.
Answer the questions instead of complaining about how misunderstood and labeled you are.

Your turn.

I have another question:
Have you ever known of a gay kid who has been accepted by his family, included in a healthy and loving peer network and who has developed his sexuality into a strong character building experience…to decide he doesn’t want to be gay anymore?

It’s obvious few people ever want to talk about the inverse. Like what a hetero would do if they were in the shoes of someone gay?

Thom thinks that Regan “overestimates” the amount of pressure put on gay folks to go straight. So, I guess those folks that kicked him out of his church (? twice) and completely rejected him after his park escapade didn’t have the least influence or represent any pressure on him to try to give up his sexual activity with men. No pressure at all, I’m sure.

@John
John,

That’s a very interesting question you pose there, and at least it is based on knowledge of who I am and where I’ve been. After the church discipline issues which arose from my arrest, I had every opportunity in the world to chuck any pretense if I truly thought of myself as homosexual. Nothing was compelling me to continue to pursue what I know is God’s intent for me. I had stumbled badly, lost pretty much everything and the easy thing at that point would have been to just give up. No one pressured me. In fact, they would probably have been relieved if I had just declared myself gay and been done with the struggle altogether. I couldn’t. Honestly, being revealed as I was gave me the freedom to move without the burden of the deception and use the energy to find out who I really am. I found that being transparent in my struggle and dropping the pressure I put on myself enabled me to confront myself honestly. I made a choice, but it was not under pressure. It was through prayer and study. The church discipline was not because they thought I was gay, but because I was deceptive about my sexual addiction. The issue was deception and unfaithfulness, not sexual orientation.

The church has, overall, been more accepting about me than you guys have.

@Thom.

“Darts of desperation.”

Why would you think I’m desperate? I’m hetero, always have been and I have no one in my family that’s close to me who is gay. I don’t have a dog in this fight. I don’t have to do anything for gay people. I can leave the whole thing alone, go my own way and not worry a damn about ex gays, gays or what they do, do I?

Did it not occur to you Thom, that I really don’t have to agree, disagree or give a s**t about any of this.
I have no need to be desperate, or concerned…or even a little annoyed at anything to do with gay people.
Nothing in it for me. Ever think of that?
I have nothing to gain, there is no profit in supporting gay people or defending them.

You haven’t asked yourself or me…what I might have endured, if anything, in all this time.
I can see and even understand why you wouldn’t want to be gay.
But you’ve never asked me why I would care about what happens to gay people.

Neither did Haley.
Your response to this conversation has pretty much been about YOUR feelings, and how YOU feel and what we say to and about YOU.
I was speaking of specifically anti gay organizations and their agendas…you weren’t even mentioned Thom, until you put your own name on what I was talking about.
You just got here. And for the most part, when I was in neutral and had made no assumptions or judgments or decisions about ex gays, in the beginning. I was looking for ex gays to educate me about their experiences and how they got to the place they were.

After years, YEARS…of nothing but stonewalling, denial, obfuscation and outright hostility and character assassination, I was helped to come to the conclusion I have. I have made no assumptions about ex gays. None whatsoever. I have had very unpleasant experiences with too many to count. Perhaps having acquired heterosexuality, with it has come a kind of confidence that you aren’t supposed to be challenged or questions. Just accepted unconditionally.
Interesting, since a myriad of conditions are placed on gay people.

It’s not really a generalization on my part, Thom. But a confluence of having the same experience with different ex gays. There isn’t a lot of variation between you. The responses are pretty much the same. Names are different, but the attitude isn’t.
If I didn’t know better, I would have guessed you were the same person.

But I do know better. I just don’t like what I see and hear and sometimes, it’s creepy.
The honest truth is, ex gays gave me nothing to work with. To think differently with. So I had to draw some kind of conclusion with what I had. I found my way to XGW in the first place because of looking for some answers.
THEY were friendly and open and eager to inform me.
Ex gays were not.
Labels? Maybe.
I don’t deal in stereotypes, I’m ALWAYS looking for an opportunity to learn, and allow for being educated.
Ex gays dropped the ball and you’re not helping either.

darts of desperation…
I wonder how desperate Carl Walker Hoover was at eleven years old, to kill himself because of anti gay torment.
Or Billy Lucas. I’ve had anti gay people make fun of me for being earnest when invoking the names of CHILDREN who have been murdered or bullied to death because of what they are taught about gay people.
I’ve had teenagers kicked out of their homes live with ME because their parents didn’t want a gay kid in the house. Especially to influence their siblings in accepting them.

Desperate? Me?

And if that’s a label you want to slap on me, so?
You got a problem If I’m desperate to help those kids? See their futures be as equals and protected and treated justly, well. Yeah, guess so. I’m desperate.
And why aren’t you?

There is a lot of work to be done. Some of us don’t have time to sit on our asses waiting to see which way the wind is going to blow.
If I’m wrong about YOU, then what are YOU doing to make things RIGHT?

Thanks for NOT answering my questions Thom. I can give you a little more time. You told us all about YOU.
Again.

And you’re complaining about how not accepted you are here. Again.
Of course your church would accept you, you’re not gay to them. Straight guys get sexual addictions too. Right?
So what difference does your orientation make? Fair question.
You’re telling us you got in trouble as a homosexual, but heterosexuality is supposed to change that?
Okay….

I hope you answer my questions, because for my part it’s not about accepting or agreeing with you. I just don’t accept b******t.

Thom, I’d like to point out if no one else has that being gay does not equal sexual addiction.

A healthy sex drive of any orientation is not “addiction.” People attracted to the same sex and not the opposite sex who loathe that part of themselves will call their attraction to the same sex “addiction” because they can’t shake it. Well, this “addiction” is no different than an opposite sex attraction. The only difference is that instead of the opposite sex, one is attracted to the same sex.

Additionally, the closet does terrible thing to people. It forces them to push back the flow of their sexuality, like capping off a running hose with your thumb. But capping off the hose doesn’t stop the water; it only makes it spray forcefully in chaotic directions. Hence, the indulgence in anonymous sex and reckless behavior that so many self-loathing gays give in to.

Thank you, Emily. I didn’t articulate it as eloquently as you did, but it’s absolutely true that ex gay ministries treat ss attraction as if it’s an addiction.
The wrongful approach to homosexuality, will yield the wrong results.

If a gay young person cannot be honest about their orientation without the kinds of reaction that anti gay people encourage, then it’s impossible to be honest at a crucial period of development.
Then you get furtive, encounters in the wrong places with the wrong people.

Seriously Thom, you are hardly unique. Ex gay ministries still think it’s a theory what will happen when gay people are accepted, and treat homosexuality as a problem. Not only for individuals, but for society.
Something which is false. Therefore, whatever their approach, will ALWAYS be wrong. This approach has been going on for a very long time. So this is not an ‘alternative’ to being gay. It’s a repression of being gay.
What HASN’T had enough time to be fully accounted, is accepting gay people as a sexual variation. A natural and normal one. Period.
THAT is the actual alternative to fear, mis characterization and hostility towards gay people and their orientation.

This is fact. As Emily is saying.

I will no longer tolerate bashing from Regan. The truth of the matter is I simply posted comments in support of PFOX on their FB page. Apparently Regan lurches on multiple discussion sites to attack anyone that appears friendly toward an ex-gay agenda. Posting combative comments to mine wasn’t enough for her though. She then took it upon herself to contact me personally via FB emails. Her daily emails kept me busy for quite a while since they were her typical book style comments. Her constant name calling and disrespectful behavior finally wore out their welcome and in the end I told her twice to get lost as politely as possible. I did not have the ability to delete posts on any discussion board as she implied since I am not an administrator to any such board. I also have the right to lecture any family member as I see fit. I could care less what Regan categorizes me as pertaining to that. In the end and with no interaction with me whatsoever, the girl made the switch to heterosexuality on her own. There was no pressure for her to do anything she didn’t want to do. There is zero damage to this young woman’s life unless she herself one day feels insecure about her past behavior. Surprise Regan – no monsters here!! Regardless of what Regan insists goes on incessantly with gay bashing, etc, I see it as a huge exaggeration. If anybody is on the attack, all Regan needs to do is look in her own mirror. And as an elder to her, I challenge her to clean up her potty mouth as well.

There is nothing evil about an organization such as Exodus who is there to help people that seeks its services and I’m more than sure no amount of screaming in opposition to it will make it go away. It will only bring more attention to its success stories. PFOX exists too. At least Regan will have less time sending attack emails to me.

And by the way, why should very much funds be allocated to the Prop 8 trial on first phase? Anybody with any logic at all knows the funds are reserved for the big fight which hasn’t even happened yet.

Nice try Haley.
You erased all the evidence that would prove the contrary. Commenting truthfully isn’t a bashing, nor an attack.
Neither is contradicting you.

It’s impossible to make a brief commentary since accusations and assertions you make, were all over the place and never stayed on point.
And are a way to put your target on the defensive.

Without the evidence, you can say what you want and expect to be believed without challenge. And you’re doing that here.
PROVE you were attacked.
PROVE it.
You made the accusation, now back it up.

Fair?

Haley Ray speaks of Exodus’ success stories. I can’t imagine what an Exodus success story is beyond getting some big donation from a right wing anti-gay group, or Randy being able to attend some event where nobody believes a word that he says about how heterosexual he has become, despite all his fabulousness.

Exodus hasn’t been able to convincingly demonstrate that anybody has or even can change their sexual orientation. It’s leaders know that they have no ability to change anybody’s sexual orientation. (After all, most of them have admitted in one way or another that they’re still gay.) Yet they dangle this mean hoax out in front of their unsuspecting fraud victims. These victims spend time and money. They can be made to feel like utter worthless failures when they realize that they are never going to change their sexual orientation. Then as a form of support, the organization may imply that they didn’t try hard enough. Some of these people end up killing themselves. Haley doesn’t think that Exodus is an evil organization, but it certainly is a brutally cruel one.

@David Roberts
Hi David, as you well know, I do respectfully adhere to the etiquette of this site, as well as defer to your suggestions or admonishments if they occur.
Which, all things considered, is rare.

Every aspect of my work, is not for the squeamish. Which comes with the territory of seeing the absolute worst reprobates society has.
And, it makes me an intense person, and good at what I do. So yeah, there comes a time when I am a bit much.

:0 P

I am depended on by an awful lot of people, and I’d hate to let them down.
I know you understand Dave. And I have appreciated, more than I can say, how much you have let me express myself.
And I see that straight allies on this site aren’t that frequent. Sometimes there are things that happen that trigger the only healthy way I can let my feelings be known, without beating someone up myself.
So, yeah…language gets crude, anger is obvious. Especially when someone comes along and acts like the injured party.
When the most they are encountering is someone who knows they are liars and cowards who won’t on their part in what happens when it’s bad.

Thanks again. Your point is well taken. I can own that too.

@Haley Ray

There is nothing evil about an organization such as Exodus who is there to help people that seeks its services and I’m more than sure no amount of screaming in opposition to it will make it go away.

Nobody writing for XGW is “screaming” for Exodus to go away. Exodus seems to be doing a great job on their own of making themselves irrelevant. And the results are not good for them. Just look at the title of this post.

And as long as the closet gets smaller and smaller, Exodus’ “need” will vanish. Just like their staff budget.

@Emily K
Emily,

WHile she doesn’t write everything in all caps, I think it’s arguable that Regan “screams” for Exodus’ demise.

I agree with you that the closet may be getting smaller. It is certainly easier these days than it used to be to step out.

It appears to me that most of the men and women who sincerely struggle within themselves, trying to determine whether they are indeed homosexual or heterosexual are people of faith. I believe the church may learn to respond with truth and compassion and pick up the responsibility to do so that has been in the hands of Exodus for so long. If the churches were responsive and did as they should how they should, Exodus would not be as necessary as it is.

@Thom Hunter
Regan doesn’t write articles for XGW. She’s a regular commenter on the site but this does not make her one of our writers.

Is my understanding correct: The majority here condemns Exodus and similar groups as being totally evil. Thom arrived and said: Well, hey, I derived some benefit from it. The response to Thom is: you are disingenuous, lying to yourself, self-loathing etc.
Is that right?

I wonder if I’m alone here in this opinion: I 100% support gay rights, gay partnerships. I believe that homosexuality is a natural, normal variant of God’s creation. I think it will be a wonderful day when young people don’t feel shame and depression at the realization of their homosexuality.

I also 100% support every individual’s right to self-determine and to create for him or herself the lifestyle that works best for him/her (as long as such a lifestyle does not harm others!). So I 100% support Thom in his personal life quest.

(Not that anyone cares what I support! But I guess we’re all here to sound off on our views!)

Thom was ridiculed here for talking about “himself” and “his” opinions, when the discussion is really about the Exodus GROUP. But groups are only comprised of individuals and their individual opinions. So I think Thom’s individual journey is important to consider and to take into account.

In other words, even if Exodus is–let’s say one could quantify it– harmful to 99% of the population and helpful to 1%, then we must at least recognize that 1%. Then we should evaluate that 1%, think about it, and maybe help encourage it? while simultaneously crusading to eliminate the 99% harmful stuff? Just wondering.

Just as homosexuality is an acceptable “alternative” lifestyle to heterosexuality, so is Thom’s journey an acceptable “alternative” journey to one who chooses to embrace their homosexuality. And to me, denouncing Thom as “disingenuous” or “lying” is equivalent to denouncing a homosexual as abnormal or wrong.

Thom, I can speak for myself, thank you.

As Emily has pointed out, and I agree with her: Exodus’s time was done a while ago. As I said too, debating whether being gay is a choice and hinging systemic discrimination on it, is what’s the most important factor.
Exodus, NARTH and all other ex gay industry use information, methodology and negative reinforcement that was old fashioned back in the 70′s.
They are not a revelatory or new way of going about persuading gay people not to be gay. They are a belief system that’s dominated discussion, politics and social science for a very long time.
And they don’t have the grace to let those more enlightened, compassionate and honest, have THEIR say.

Haley Ray might invoke a personal experience with a relative, but has yet to explain or justify why discrimination against gay people who don’t follow that example, deserve discrimination.
I don’t scream for the demise of Exodus. When their own dominant voices lose strength and relevance and they lose the custom of the masses, it’s because honesty and real compassion prevailed.

The expectations of groups who support the ex gay industry don’t care about the added burdens they place on someone else. A burden they refuse to own when it DOES fail.
Despite how much they advertise and assert their successes, in a court of law…another story is in evidence.
Rarely ARE people who lead that industry ARE called into a serious court. They prevail upon the court of public opinion and the voters, and their elected officials.

But when pressed by parties who expect answers in justifying keeping gay people in second class citizen status, they hide, say they don’t want to be revealed, don’t want to have to answer to a forum where PROOF is required.

Gay people have had precious little opportunity to speak for themselves, be themselves, have someone believe them and the public be respectful enough NOT to argue if a gay person says they didn’t choose to be that way.

You should know how difficult it is just to do that. And you should also admit it happens more often and profoundly than it should.

I ask, and Haley too:
If she or her children wanted to know about Jews, being Jewish…especially in a context of social and political discrimination, would she consult a non Jewish anti Semite to learn?

I ask you the same thing.

So how is it at all fair, right and supportable to make the dominant oppressive factor in gay lives, be the ones given credibility and unchallenged trust?

If you wouldn’t go to a segregationist to ask whether or not blacks deserve equal opportunity and protection, than doing the equivalent to gay people doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

But it does to the ex gay industry, who demand to have all access, all power, all information control with the socio/political powers that be.
PFOX demands access to schools, and wants to teach that being gay is not only changeable, but the desirable way to be.
Yeah, and if you taught a Jewish kid that being Christian is BETTER, or a black kid that being WHITE is better…then the damage done can last a lifetime.

Indeed, the Clark study, on the psychic and physical damage to black children forced to be in inferior, segregated situations did just that.
And was what decided overturning segregation in Brown vs. the Bd. of Ed.

The inference of inferiority in gay people to children gay or straight, is despicable.
I don’t have to scream Thom.

I have history, facts and their context on my side.
What do YOU or Haley have?

@anne
Hi Anne, again…well thought out comment. Very fair.
I will reiterate this point though. I said I empathized with Thom. I’m a black person. A black woman. I have experienced direct racism, discrimination, and racial insensitivity that might as well have been a product of Jim Crow.

I have been known and tried to comfort, women who became anorexic, a flawlessly beautiful Japanese girl who wanted eye surgery to change the epicanthic fold in her eyes, and blacks who have suffered scalp burns and other indignities.

All of this pain, expense and mental anxiety to conform to an UNNECESSARY standard, prompted by low self esteem that came from the negative reinforcement of stigma, bullying, isolation and discrimination.

Even when a statement WAS made in general about Exodus and OTHER factors in the ex gay industry, HE put his name on it, and defended them.
Any defense of what we know to be a damaging and strong institution, will garner serious criticism.
Something that Thom won’t own.
I said I could understand why he wouldn’t want to be gay. When I was a child I didn’t want to be black. It’s hard being a woman.

But I won’t, and never would defend the very people who made me feel that way.
You’re absolutely right he deserves to be able to choose his own way without CRITICISM from us.
But gay people don’t get to choose THEIRS without major threat to everything any normal human being holds dear.
And he won’t admit that, no ex gay EVER does.
And few, if any ex gays defend gay people on any level for any reason. At least not enough to make a difference.
That’s the disconnect.
After a fashion, the only person that matters is the ex gay. Nobody else. It’s as if their whole exercise in affecting heterosexuality requires a lot of distance from their former selves so profound, that even memory would bring back all those ss longings.

It’s a characteristic and consequence of being ex gay Anne. The ex gay industry still has a lot of influence where they shouldn’t and they want to invade every aspect of everything whether they are invited or not.
I don’t know if you go to enough ‘family’ org sites, but all of them, to a one…will at some point, use ex gays as justification to discriminate.
Will invoke directly, NARTH or Exodus or any other group that says they’ve changed gay people.
And they complain bitterly that they are being persecuted, silenced and their 1st amendment rights are being compromised. They are constantly saying that any protections or equal rights gay people have, is a harbinger of society’s downfall…and the end of Christianity as we know it.
THEY still walk the halls of legislation and so on in Washington, D.C.
Tony Perkins was on the Hill at the DADT hearings.

Yet, Thom thinks I’m strident and screaming. I have admitted and will own the fact that I’m intense.
BTW, I’m a crime scene photographer for the LAPD.
If I’m concerned about the kind of bullying in schools that gets eleven year olds killing themselves, or 15 year olds getting executed in their classroom by another teen, well….
doesn’t it make YOU wanna holler too?

I don’t care to take criticism from someone who is part of the problem Anne. He IS.
All ex gays are, whether directly or indirectly. It’s the nature of their status. There isn’t anything they have to do to actively work against gay people.
Their existence does. And contradicts to what level of trust is possible.
And every time, gay people are on the losing end of that trust. No matter what gay people have to say.

And it’s disingenuous for Thom to either deny it, or criticize those of us who point that out.
His position is not neutral. His position is an example that’s used often and to great effect.
Gay people still don’t get to have much say, or to determine how they want to be happy and secure.
And people like Thom, especially if they tell THEIR story, give the opposition strength to their cause. Thom isn’t exactly resisting being used that way, I think he might even denied it happened because he’s not ACTIVE in the political sense.
But his church might be. His family might be.
Like the way Haley brought up her family member.

And all that does a lot of damage, regardless of what Thom thinks he’s doing personally.

That is why we have to point it out. Why he feels attacked and why he’s feeling as if he’s a good person because he has no hostile or ill feelings towards gay people per se.

The bigger point is. He doesn’t have to. He is living exactly what Exodus needs to hurt other gay people. And no ex gay has ever admitted that when speaking to us.
That IS dishonest.
Thanks Anne. Just trying to explain it.

@Regan DuCasse

“The bigger point is. He doesn’t have to. He is living exactly what Exodus needs to hurt other gay people. And no ex gay has ever admitted that when speaking to us.
That IS dishonest.”

Regan,

Is it your preference then, for the sake of those you claim have been hurt by Exodus, for me to give up the way I am living . . . which I believe is now the right way for me? And if it truly is the right way for me, and has brought me peace, are you suggesting I go into hiding?

“I don’t care to take criticism from someone who is part of the problem Anne. He IS.
All ex gays are, whether directly or indirectly. It’s the nature of their status. There isn’t anything they have to do to actively work against gay people.
Their existence does.”

This is an interesting statement by you Regan. I believe it may be the very first time I have been told that my very existence is an active work against gay people. That may well be the height of hatred. I have a hard time picturing someone who would actually make that statement.

I wonder why it is acceptable for you to constantly point to your experiences through life as having formed your positions and making them absolutely perfectly correct, when, in truth, each time I refer to my own experiences, you respond with criticisms of me as talking about myself, or whining. Is it that experiences that do not parallel yours are invalid.

I know you are passionate, but you also seem pretty shallow and arbitrary and oddly arrogant, placing some special level on yourself because you are black and heterosexual, but support homosexuality, almost position yourself as one who could do no harm. Me, I’m just a middle-class white man who experienced for a number of years homosexuality, knowing all along it was probably not right for me, but lacking the courage to find out what was and then fearing the consequences of others knowing what I had been doing. Only when I decided to be honest and transparent did I even face the possibility of an honest life. It came with pain, but it came with relief.

Your efforts to demonize seem frantic, more designed to make sure everyone hears you again.

Thom

@David Roberts
I didn’t say I was offended, and self-defense is not hypocritical. I would never tell someone that their very existence is damaging to others. Regan his license here; I realize that.

I just think she weakens her arguments by attacking people and then, when they respond, bashing them for talking about themselves and declaring them whiners. Gee. I understand your defense of her. She’s your chief responder and it’s pretty much her site to ramble at will.

It would have been interesting to really have had a discussion and not to have just re-opened a Regan-rant session. I am thankful — in all honesty — for the compassion that drives her in her career and I believe she probably has used that very much to the benefit of those she serves. However, she has been far off the mark regarding me. It’s spiraled down to a less than useful dialog. Not your fault, David, as I think you do seem interested in looking at other’s viewpoints and experience as having some amount of validity, but it is clear that Regan runs the show here.

No Thom, I have never suggested you give up your way of living. Just don’t say that it’s neutral and has no effect.
I point out my orientation, because with my support of gay people, it’s common to be assumed to be gay. I speak of my racial identity because, as I said, it’s a means of illustrating that I empathize and in what way that I can. Why do you have a problem with that?

I’m not gay, and I don’t claim that I understand being gay. But I have known people that pass for something they are not. And the damage that does not only to THEIR credibility in the face of specific systemic civil rights issues, but they also damage the cred of those who don’t pass or change.

See?
And I just said that living ex gay doesn’t HAVE to be ACTIVE, or DIRECTLY involved with the policies regarding being gay.
But ex gays ARE used as an example for determining equal rights.

You did it again. You personalized something that I distinctly and specifically said had nothing to do with YOU directly.

And you didn’t bother to answer my questions. So is there a point in asking how saying that the ex gay example being used for other purposes, is evidence of hatred on MY part?
Explain that Thom.
You opened the door to accusation and complaint, so back it up.

I have been trying to explain to you exactly and truthfully everything that motivates what I say.
And doing you the courtesy of historical and social context to OTHER things that are similarly situated to it all.
Then you complain again about how I’m picking on you.

Tell you what Thom, something tells me I’m closer to the truth than you’re comfortable with. Especially about empathizing with you. You forgot that part, didn’t you?

Thom, I am a trusted member of the gay community. I am literally given much invitation, openness and inclusion among the gay and transgendered. I HUMBLY am grateful to be trusted and treated with so much standing.
Does it not occur to ask why that is? And I would do anything NOT to damage that trust and relationship.
I already told you, what other purpose do you think there would be for me to have that relationship?
No one in my family is gay. No child of mine, no one that would necessarily prompt the relationship I have with gay folks.
There is no profit in doing so, the way there is in being ANTI GAY in our society.

I don’t want to sound condescending to that community, nor treat my statement as something that makes me special.

But trust is a VERY precious commodity among friends, family and given the social and political reality that confronts me and my friends, it begs the question why aren’t YOU trusted as much?

Do you think you could be? Who are you most useful to, the anti gay, or gay people?
I do respect your choice, Thom. Just don’t try and make any claims as if it doesn’t cause some damage somewhere. Doesn’t have serious utility for purposes that have hurt gay people over and over again.
There are over 28 amicus briefs being filed in courts everywhere, with regard to the support of marriage bans.
Each one on some level specifies people like YOU. When given an opportunity (and everyone is) to speak to their defense of discrimination, people like YOU show up in court to do it.
I said, LIKE YOU…not specifically YOU.

It’s funny that you’d call ME arrogant and hateful, but not the people filing these briefs, showing the real impetus behind their activity and who their target is.

Who don’t care to explain why gay people have to give up THEIR way of living to be happy for their own reasons.
And are not compelled to.

The point is Thom, you aren’t explaining YOURSELF, while demanding that I, in particular, accommodate your complaints.
Why should I? I’m simply not impressed by you. Period.

@Thom Hunter
Thom, are you kidding? MY show?

You have been given the same accommodation as I have. And David is not averse to cautioning me when necessary. I’m in the minority here as a straight person. No one here ever had to give me the time of day, let alone agree with me and you have had just as much opportunity as anyone else to explain yourself, answer questions.
I don’t demand anyone agree with me. It’s a matter of anyone’s discretion if they do.

I have answered YOUR comments honestly. And accounted for myself and my actions. And, I’m not complaining to anyone.
And I’m not the only one here who has responded to you similarly.

You got two choices here Thom. It’s true here, as it is in your life. Two choices.
And I think you can guess what they are.

@Regan DuCasse
Regan,

My hesitancy to answer definitively your questions is based only on the fact that my positions are based on the experience of my life and on my faith. They’re mine. They may not match everyone else. As I have said, I am not politically active in this struggle. I do not go out and campaign against gays or show up in courtrooms or make statements. I just don’t think that is what God wants me to do. I simply share what has taken place in my life and if it is helpful to someone who is struggling to make a decision, then I am glad. I don’t dissuade them from listening to others with differing opinions, as I believe this decision is not only personal, but life-defining.

My personal perspective, as a Christian, knowing not everyone here will agree: I believe my responsibility as a Christian is to love as well as I can each person, regardless of whether he or she believes himself or herself to be straight or gay, because each of us uniquely created in the image of God. I cannot change anyone. I can love people and pray for them, and if it is God’s will for them to change and they are to discover and follow that will, then they may very well change. Will I love them less if they do not? No. My responsibility and desire is to love them. Simply. And to try my best to be as honest as I can about myself.

I’m not trying to make the lives of others harder, restrict rights or lead anyone downs paths to depression. I’ve been there in my own journey and wish it on no one.

I did not respond to your questions on purpose because my purpose differs from your own. I want to be there for those who are searching and want to hear my perspective. If they reject it, I do not reject them. I have been where they are and I have experienced the pain of rejection from the church, and, in here, the rejection of those who think my personal decision is not only wrong, but hurts others in some way by making it harder for them to make their own.

I just don’t buy that.

I don’t believe gay people have to give up their way of living to be happy, nor do I believe that happiness is the most important goal in life.

Thom