Ex-Gay Watch

Apology noted. Now stop doing what you had to apologize for in the first place.

In other words, go and sin no more against your fellow man.

Meh. Leopard. Spots. Change.

It doesn’t take too long going over his site to run into the same poisonous messages. Links to Exodus. Glowing words about Frank Worthen. He’s even got part of the old team on board (Bob Watson). Only this time he promises it will taste nicer.

That’s called re-marketing, not reformation. LIA simply wasn’t paying his desired salary.

All that aside, John did however make me laugh out loud this morning:

One man said, “John if you can work with sexual recovery, you can surely sell cars!”

Isn’t that what we’ve been saying all along? It’s about time Alan and Randy went to a real University (and passed)… Toyota University!

quite possibly John is on a journey so many Christians are making today. The first step is a change in attitude. This often happens when instead of judging and trying to change others they are prepared to be in a space of questioning and listening to gay and lesbian christians who have realised their morality is a choice but our sexual orientation isn’t. Once the change in attitude happens the previous misconceptions begin to crumble away.

thanks John for the humility of the apology…..I trust it brings healing to those who have been harmed. Although for some the wounds and trauma are deep and it can take years. Some struggle to let it go.

I am very appreciate of John’s apology. I wish that it reflected a change in theology rather than just a change in perspective, but I believe it is sincere and I’ll take it for what it is.

As for “apologize in person”, I would not recommend it. Though John has moved away from judgmentalism, his site still has as a doctrinal statement that “We acknowledge the sinfulness of any sexual act outside of the scriptural context of Holy Matrimony between a man and a woman” and I’m not seeing that to be anything less that a rejection of those who do not agree.

OMG WTF is that seven minute psycho-babble video?

Shut up, John. Really. Just stop talking.

But David, that’s what it is. All he’s doing is retooling his harmful message, yet missing the entire point of why his message is harmful.

And I REALLY don’t know what Morgan Fox is doing making nice-nice with him.

Some people you just spit out. You wish them no ill will, but you spit them out.

Good on him…definitely a step in the right direction

OMG, David.

This is indeed an important start. It reminds me of the Days of Awe, the 10 days when God watches us (the Jewish people) closest, between Rosh Hashana (new year) and Yom Kippur (day of atonement, the holiest of the high holy days). We are to make amends directly with those we’ve wronged on earth, our fellow humans, before we dedicate the day of fasting to repentence and return to God. God has the power to forgive – and He does, to no end – but He does not magically change the minds of others you’ve wronged. You need to take responsibility. And talking about it or thinking about it is not enough. You need to take action, walk the walk, etc. I believe Smid is doing so.

I encourage everyone to do as he asks; if you were hurt by him express the hurt and ask for an apology. Believe it or not, being directly confronted and being allowed to face up to the wrong committed is just as healing for some as confronting someone about how they hurt you.

I agree that it’s a “step in the right direction” — an “important start”. No repentance is perfect or will satisfy everyone. I have personally and publically apologized many times over (for nearly 30 years now) and I am still told by some gay ativists that my apology was not enough — and will never be enough. Could he do more? Sure. Should he do more? Of course. All of us should do more.

But I thank him for this. It’s a step. A big step. I thank him for apologizing for the harm he knows he has done. I believe that once you face it, God will take you the rest of the way. It’s not an easy journey, but it needs to be done. All of us who did harm, intentionally or not, owe the world a HUGE apology for our involvment in Exodus.

Now, if only Frank Worthen (co-founder of Exodus and founder of LIA), Alan Chambers, Randy Thomas and the rest of Exodus leadership — past and present — would take such a step. After all the wrong done, it is simply the right thing — the “Christian” thing — to do.

I have mixed emotions about the apology (speaking as one who tried to degay through ‘ministries’ like Johns, but was never directly involved with his particular endeavor).

On the one hand, I am encouraged by anyone who wants to listen and look. I am of the opinion that love is the most important thing we can do as people, and I don’t think you can love a person who you cannot hear or see.

On the other hand, for me the definition of love is to value and affirm the person we see and hear. Love is not a process of altering another to suit our own idea of lovely, that’s just a form of self validation. Exgay beliefs do not affirm a person as TGLB. They don’t recognize us as legitimate people and that is where all the harm begins.

It seems to me that John has relocated but that he brought his baggage with him. What happens when he unpacks? What is in the luggage?

This type of speech, containing many “I” statements, is typical of people with NPD (narcissistic personality disorder). He preens himself constantly and even when he does a few “we/our/us” statements at the end he focusses on others as secondary to himself.

I’m with Evan – what a bunch of crap. This self-involved judgmental whacko has spent decades either refusing his own homosexuality and in doing so, has tortured others, and is now continuing to call the natural state of homosexuality sinful – meaning wrong. I don’t buy into all that sin crap – I recovered from anything religious years ago – these type of people need to move on and fix themselves and leave my homosexual brothers and sisters alone to live their lives and flourish. Kind words don’t cut it in these situations – bluntness – and LEGAL ACTION – are the only actions that might stop this waste of time madness.

I, like many others, was once a conservative Christian, and I toed the conservative Christian line on homosexuality. But gradually I came to accept gays and eventually I was able to accept myself.

I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t believe that “change is possible” for other people, too. I’d also be a hypocrite if I denied them the same slow, gradual process that I went through. I celebrate every step – and I think this is a step in the right direction.

And of course, like every apology, it will ultimately be tested by actions.

Mr. Bussee, let’s be honest here. Most people who are still angry with you and unwilling to forgive you aren’t angry because you changed your mind or because you spoke out about it. They’re angry and unwilling to forgive you because you stayed silent for YEARS after you realized that the program you created and administered was bogus and did real harm, while thousands more vulnerable people were put through the hell that you helped to create.

I posted this at his side:

John,

While I appreciate your apology, but two elephant in the room remain.

Although you realize that you have hurt people, I do not think you know how much. Those that committed suicide because they could not reconcile their sexual orientation with your indoctrination of how they would have to deal with their faith will never come and ask for a personal apology.

The second elephant is that you are avoiding to tell us your view on homosexuality now. Do you still think it is reparable, changeable? Do you still think it is a sin despite that god will forgive you and love you? Do you still think it is okay to try, maybe with more gentle loving methods, to change someones orientation?

An answer would be appreciated.

Kim

I’m with emily, though perhaps with less grace.

Understanding is one thing, forgiveness quite another.

Apologizing is one thing, atonement quite another.

Backing off is one ting, healing is quite another.

1. I am glad to read John Smid’s apology, and I hope it is a step toward him becoming the kind of person who does not harm LGBT people, or those who are having conflicts but don’t embrace such an identity.

2. Unfortunately, I agree with Paul’s comment above that exgay beliefs don’t affirm our relationships or respect embracing a TGLB identity. As Paul says: “…and that is where all the harm begins.” I agree. Smid says his new ministry is not PRIMARILY (read it closely) focused on ex-gay ministry. But it is an ex-gay ministry, and therefore it will continue to propagate harm – for TGLB people, for those who are conflicted, and for anyone who does not accept Smid’s version of Christianity (these people believe this last group will be punished by god just as this first group will). Mr. Smid, I appreciate your apology; however, I believe you have a long way to go to truly understand the harm you continue to cause.

3. Survivors of ex-gay ministries BEWARE: While I agree with Emily that there can be the potential for healing by speaking about the harm to the person who harmed you, when this person (John Smid) does not realize that he is still contributing to the abuse of others (see point #2), then he is a dangerous person for survivors to talk with. He is still an abuser, with a more subtle brand of heterosexism and condemnation, which is why he is MORE dangerous now than before. That he thinks by “revamping the methods” of Love in Action now makes LIA not harmful reveals that he does not understand the abuse that goes on.

4. Last point. Remember that this apology from Smid came about/happened as a result of an invitation for dialogue by the author of the article, David Roberts. I agree with Roberts in his point that Smid’s apology and new ministry sounds a lot like Andrew Marin (author of _Love is an Orientation_). Marin’s book/perspective, I think, is MORE dangerous in some ways than Exodus, because it’s a kinder, gentler version of the same condemning, heterosexist message, and Marin offers in this book a strategy for Christians to develop relationships with LGBT people for the ultimate purpose of converting them to [their version of] Christianity (which they then think will lead converts eventually to renounce their homosexuality).

Guess what Marin’s first suggested step in this process is?

Yep, an apology.

Be careful of kinder, gentler Christian supremacists.

I believe they are very sincere, they really do believe they love us and that what they have to offer is good for us.

They’re dangerous.

Thank you for pointing that out about Marin, Christine.

It’s beyond me why people consider him to be any sort of ally.

He refuses to take real stances, couching it all in the hocus pocus of wanting to share God with all people, and he creates safe spaces for whatever discriminatory beliefs people hold, under the guise of “meeting them where they are.”

Christine,

I have to second David’s request. While I find Marin’s “woe is me” gays to be different from my experience of the broad expanse of the gay community, I am not aware of any “lead ‘em to Jesus so they’ll stop being gay” language in the book.

I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t believe that “change is possible” for other people, too. I’d also be a hypocrite if I denied them the same slow, gradual process that I went through. I celebrate every step – and I think this is a step in the right direction.

I agree with Dave Rattigan on this.

They’re angry and unwilling to forgive you because you stayed silent for YEARS after you realized that the program you created and administered was bogus and did real harm, while thousands more vulnerable people were put through the hell that you helped to create.

TampaZeke: I understand this and do not blame them at all for being angry. They have every right to be. I should have spoken up much, MUCH sooner. Keep in mind, I was in my early twenties, a new father, suddenly unemployed and friendless — and struggling on every level just to survive — still going through my own inner struggle about what to do next.

Leaving Exodus, I had lost all my friends, my faith, my job, my direction. I had no gay friends. I had never even been to a gay bar — or attended a gay support group. I knew of no “gay community” that would welcome me and say, “We are here for you. Take the next step.” There was no support for a guy in my position. No one had done this before. I was on my own.

I just wanted to disappear and try to heal. Gary and I had no one to lean on but each other. We hoped the ex-gay movement would just die. Unfortunately it didn’t. Finally, when Gary became ill, we felt we had to break our silence — not matter what the cost. So we did. Maybe it was not enough, too late — unforgiveable. I guess I have to live with that.

In any case, I think we need to remember that coming out is a process, not an event. It’s step by step — and there is always a next step. Didn’t most of us go through some sort of coming out process? Weren’t there, for many of us, years of silently suffering in the closet before we couldn’t take it any more? How long did it take to find our voice? Some people still haven’t. They are still living the lie.

I knew my family would turn their back. I knew Exodus would condemn me, so-called “Christian friends” would revile me and there were no gay people I could speak to without experiencing similar condemnation.
I was afraid I would lose custody of my daughter if I did and that I would get condemnation from BOTH sides if I did. The fears were justifiable. But that is no excuse. I should have done it earlier — no matter what. I have done all I can think of.

If some gays are still mad, what do you suggest I do? What more can I do? I am willing to do whatever it takes — short of setting myself on fire on Alan Chambers’ doorstep.

maybe you could just set fire to alan chambers and not damage a valuable doorstep.

Nah. just kidding.
. You did do the best you could. i believe Smid is doing the best he can.

We all do the very best that we can, which unfortunately sometimes isn’t very good

Sorry, i didn’t finish.

I certainly appreciate your efforts, michael, and at least Smid is trying to do something. But his confusion over his own journey vs. anyone else’s will never be resolved until he start making some efforts to atone for what he has done so far.

When kids aren’t killing themselves any more becuase they see no cohice between self-destruciton and bible-sanctioned destruction, and Smid can claim some credit for it, then I, too, will believe.

Ben, I don’t “believe”. I have hope. I hope his apology is real and will do some good. As for “forgiving” — I think of two kinds of forgiveness. Type 1: You decide to stop hating a person, even if they haven’t changed on bit, because you are tired of caring that burden. You forgive so you can be free — not because everything is alright.

Type 2. You earn it. The “Four R’s”:

Reponsibility.You say, “I really screwed up. I did harm.” You take the blame. You face the fact that your actions or stupidity hurt someone.
Remorse. The real deal — not just a “I’m sorry, please let me off the hook”. You feel the pain of the pain you have caused. Deep, deep regret. Genuine sorrow. Genuine grief. The kind you would feel if you hit an old lady in a cross walk.
Repair.You do everything in your power to undo the damage. Real steps. Real work. Real atonement. Not empty promises. Real change.
Repeats.None. You do eveything you can not to cause the same harm over and over.

Only time will tell if John does all four. At this point, I choose to believe he’s on the path.

point noted and accepted.

Michael,

One thing that so many people have trouble with is understanding the purpose and the focus of apology and forgiveness.

We don’t forgive for the sake of others. Yes, the forgiven may well benefit from the forgiveness, but we forgive because it liberates us.

I think Jesus really understood this. He knew that resentment, anger, and spite usually hurt the one holding it more than the target. So he said, “forgive” because God forgave you, thus giving us a reason to let go of all that bile.

Apologies work similarly, but actually serve two functions. First, they allow the guilty party to begin to forgive themself as well as starting the atonement process which makes the situation whole. (Just as forgiveness relieves the injured, so does apology relieve the guilty). But it also provides confirmation and assurance to the harmed party that their feelings, their lives, are of value (It also discourages the guilty party from continuing their behavior because it reminds them that others are of value).

And Jesus knew about this as well, it’s called “repentance”. We are called to repent, not so that God can forgive us (he does anyway), but because it liberates us from both guilt and a pattern of harm to others.

Ultimately, though, we have to forgive, even if we aren’t asked. Not for them, but for us. And we are called to repent to each other, even if no forgiveness results.

We can’t change others or control their responses. We can only liberate ourselves.

I think that if you look back at your comment above, you’ll see that type 1 is forgiveness and focused on the injured party and what they should do. Type 2 is all about apology and is focused on what the guilty should do; it’s not really about forgiveness.

Thanks for clarifying this. I agree with you Timothy. I am hoping — really hoping — that John is “starting the atonement process which makes the situation whole” — for himself and for all those he may have harmed. Coming out and atonement are both a long, hard “process”.

As one who has done and is still doing it, I may have a certain perspective that others may not share. How many Exodus leaders have done something even close to an apology or tried to make the situation whole?

Very few. The ones who do take a step need some support. It may anger a few people, but I intend to extend a hand to John as he does both. I promised I would and I will. I still believe in change.

Mr. Bussee, I forgive you. I forgave you years ago. Not for your sake but for mine.

It bothers me that even today you seem to be wollowing in self pity and excuses. “The gay community didn’t accept me” I wonder why? “The gay community was going to be as mean to me as the Christians”. Reeeeally? I wonder why that might be? “My wife would be angry with me and she might try to take my kids from me”. After lying to her for years and filling her head with such horrible ideas of what gay people were and what a threat to family and children and morality, can anyone blame her for being angry and wanting to keep her child from such threats.

Nowhere in your last comment did you follow a stated hardship with a acknowledgment of how you created it.

Look, I feel for what you went through. I have some sympathy for it. But it was YOU and your group who convinced my parents that I was a broken person who could be fixed. Because of your advice I was sent, against my will, to “‘ex-gay’ camp”. I was taught to hate myself and to dread every day I lived. I wanted to kill myself. When I finally couldn’t do it anymore and decided, for survival’s sake to accept myself my family disowned me and threw me out on my a*s. This is a world that YOU help create for me, I didn’t create it for myself. So forgive me if I find your whining about how abandoned you felt after YOUR creation blew up in your face just a bit nauseating and infuriating.

You have every right to feel that way. I deserve every bit of it. I acknowledge that I created all of it — every bit of it. Now, I am doing my best to un-do it.

TampaZeke. You asked why I had not spoken up sooner. I answered the question. Not as an “excuse”, but as an explanation of what held me back at the time. I am not wallowing in self-pity. I regret my actions and renounce what I once believed about being gay.

Like many LGBT people, I grew up in a world that taught me to hate my gayness — I didn’t create that world. I thought God would change me. I was wrong. I echoed the message I had been taught by by culture and my religion. I was wrong.

Just like you, “I was taught to hate myself and to dread every day I lived.” Like you, “I wanted to kill myself.” Like you, “When I finally couldn’t do it anymore and decided, for survival’s sake to accept myself my family disowned me and threw me out on my a*s.”

So did the many in the church. So did many in the gay community — and I really don’t blame them. Some did not. I am sincerely grateful to those people. I understand that some will continue to be angry no matter what.

Why shouldn’t they be? They have every right to be. I am doing what I can. I cannot and will not continue to apologize over and over. I take full responsibility for the harm I caused, but I choose to move on.

Add to that my anger that you are still a LIAR.

“I have personally and publically [sic] apologized many times over (for nearly 30 years now) and I am still told by some gay ativists [sic] that my apology was not enough — and will never be enough.”

You’re telling us that you’ve been apologizing personally and publicly since 1980 or thereabouts? Really? Somehow that doesn’t match my recollection.

When I was being shipped off to “reorientation camp” because of your “testimony” you had already come to the conclusion that you were full of s**t and were living with your new boyfriend but just couldn’t get around to going public about your epiphany for years later. I just found that out recently. It just re-angered me all over again. Then I read that ONE sentence here and it reignited my fuse. In addition to the fact that it is a lie, it makes it sound like “after all I’ve done over the last “thirty” years, there are still some gay people that just can’t let it go. Shame on those bitter homos for not getting over it already. You still have a long way to go before you’re honest with yourself and the community. It actually takes a person of GREAT character to forgive someone who continues to revise history and make excuses the way you do.

With that I’m truly done with you. I needed this opportunity to confront you. I didn’t think I did until today. Now I know that there is more to freeing one’s soul than simple forgiveness. It just ain’t that easy sometimes Timothy. Sometimes we MUST confront the offender and the offense before true forgiveness can happen.

Sorry Michael, I was typing while you responded. I’m not trying to drag this out. I’ve said my piece and now I’m ready to move on.

I honestly wish you the best in your life. I hope you continue to make amends to those you’ve hurt more than you will ever know.

Take care.

I think it is more helpful to support former leaders who have apologised like Michael and others. I co-ordinated a similar thing here in Australia which also had national and international implications.

Former ex-gay leaders are on a journey like everyone else. Its takes time to resolve our ‘stuff’. Some never seem to continuing to live in the past of hurt, pain and unforgiveness themselves. In the long run though this only hurts them and others more. If you are one of the people who have found peace and resolution you are one of the blessed ones.

As a former high profile preacher here in Australia (not unlike Ted Haggard) it took me 6 years to actually begin to feel human again after the trauma of the scandal. it was at this time I found complete peace and resolution in 3 areas. My sexuality, faith and those who had wronged me.

When the 5 former leaders issued their apologies and were posted on my blog I noted 6 reasons why this had taken so long. You might find that helpful.
l

for some reason the link didn’t appear in the post. Trying again

http://alifeofunlearning.blogspot.com/2007/08/five-of-australias-ex-gay-leaders.html

Glad you got it off your chest. I deserved it. But when I said I have been apologizing for 30 years, it’s true. Not a lie. Not a revision. I should have said, I have been apologizing for 30+ years — first privately to those closest to me — and then more and more publically as time went by.

I started close to home — with family, friends and those we had known personally. One person at a time. We didn’t go public immediately bacause as Anthony pointed out, we were still struggling and we both had children who would be open to public scorn and undeserved pain when we did. And by the way, they have recieved it — from all sides. That’s my own fault.

Maybe you think it’s lame or unforgiveable that we delayed the more public announcement. Maybe you think that we should have done it no matter what — with no concern for how it would impact our kids. You may be right. But, not really sure what to do or how to do it, we started small. Then at college classes and gay discussion groups. Then my local community.

The “big” media didn’t pick it up until the late 80′s when I was approached by a local gay activist attorney who asked if we ready to go public — I do not remember the exact date. I should have done it MUCH sooner, as I acknowledged.

You seem to think I should have called a press conference the moment I left Exodus — fully self-accepting and fully ready to take on the activist role. Considering the justifiable anger that continues to this day in spite of all of this, I sincerely wish I had.

I cannot undo history. It happened as it happened. It took time and it will never be fully done. I am willing to accept the anger that continues to this day and I will continue to make amends to the best of my ability as long as God gives me breath to do so.

…..and possibly it should be noted that had we known what we know now we would never have tried to turn straight. At the time we had know other options as far as we were aware. The gay christian movement was not really birthed till the mid 70′s….it was not even on the radar for a number of years after that…..and it took time for some of us to realise these people were not deceived.

We have all be victims of our own and others ignorance.

Today though is a new day and one by one people are waking up…..and moving along the contimuum for hatred through to advocacy

http://gayambassador2.blogspot.com/

Zeke- for whatever it is worth, I wouldn’t be too hard on Michael. He did what he did at a much different time from now, and has spent a good portion of the last 30 years apologizing for it. This i know for a fact– it is not revisionist. When I was young, I was fortunate– I was a lot stronger than many of my peers, a trait that has served me well my whole life. When I came out in 1971, it was with the knowledge of my own strength. I had not been taught to hate myself, though it was clear to me I was an object of hate.

A lot of people just didn’t– and don’t– have that. Your average Christian who considers himself an abject pustule of sin did not come to that conclusion on his own, and very few children have the interior fortitude to call that BS what it is.

Give him a break.

Why does this struggle exist?

Because we are faced with two major realities.

1. We know that God exists.
2. We know that we are gay.

These two facts are what cause us to wrestle with who we are and what that means for us and eternity. Those who have read God’s word, know very well what it says about homosexuality and what happens to those who “practice” such a “lifestyle”.

Those who know God’s word and battle inwardly with accepting who they are, often don’t have a place to turn to. We know and believe in God but yet are confused as to our position. In our confusion we search to find a safe harbor, a calm in a raging storm. We search for answers but only find that they seem elusive, just out of reach. Someone who has a strong conviction in God and yet are imbued with emotions and feelings that go against the very nature of God, has in effect sailed into the perfect storm.

Ultimately we find ourselves on a journey riddled with questions without answers and searching for a calm in this great storm of life. Some of us searching for these answers come to a realisation that the world offers little if any useful help. A world riddle with organisations and groups offering help with something they themselves do not understand.

It has taken me years to understand that God loves me in spite of all my imperfections (what ever those may be in His eyes) and that while I may seem to take a different view of God than others, it does not escape me that I do not stand alone. Spanning the globe are those whose fight is one in the same.

My heart breaks knowing that some will lose the battle in this confusing war. To those who are fighting within, I say to you, life is worth every ounce of fight. Keep fighting even when the world and ultimately your own doubts tell you to give up. Remember that God does not hate, He loves.

Finally I would like to make a urgent plea to the gay community. It is time that we get some values in our community. It is time that we break away from those things that shed a darkness on our community. I will not go into details but there are alot of things that we need to change in order for the world to take us serious. No we dont need to conform but ridding ourselves of typical destructive patterns may go along way in getting our voices heard.

Sterling, with all respect:

1) Those who have read God’s word, know very well what it says about homosexuality and what happens to those who “practice” such a “lifestyle”.

No we don’t– either what it says, what happens, or any of it.

2) We know that God exists.

You know. The rest of us don’t know, nor do we know that if God exists, he is the chrstian god (in one of his 60,000 denomination permutations , the jewish God, The islamic god, or anyone else’s god. In other words, you believe. you don’t know.

3) “We search for answers but only find that they seem elusive, just out of reach. Someone who has a strong conviction in God and yet are imbued with emotions and feelings that go against the very nature of God, has in effect sailed into the perfect storm.”

lots of poeple have no such problems.

” It is time that we get some values in our community. It is time that we break away from those things that shed a darkness on our community.”

Remember about the woman taken in adultery? “Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone”

Perfect example here. Why is that gay people have to achieve some sort of perfection, according to heterosexist standards, when heterosexuals make no such requirement of themselves to be “taken seriously?”

Most of the darkness on our ocmmunity comes from heteorsexuals (and wanna-be-straight-but-ain’ts)
We deal with the hand that we have been dealth. the wonder is that so many gay people and relationships thrive and grow in spite of all of the social and religious forces arrayed against us, where as so many heterosexual relaitonships crap out despite all of the social and religious forces arrayed to support htem– including the belief that heterosexuality is somehow natural, normal and right, and homosexuality is not.

You owuld think if it were so much God’s will, there wouldn’t be any problems.

But there are

In response:

I AM GAY!

I, Like many among me have fought with identifying who I am and what that means in relation to what I was taught about God. This I have overcome.

As for my comment about getting some values in our community…Well…. I came out 14 years ago and have experienced the GAY SCENE. It would take a host of comments to explain fully what I mean and the ramifications therein. Just a few words might help the thought process along…Drugs….Promiscuity….Bars……Clubs…..Crimes. Having values and standards are a good thing!

I’m a 20-something gay woman who came out in high school; I never felt i needed to go into “the scene.” The most I delved into it was going to clubs to dance (but never drink) and attending pride-fest (but only to walk around and talk to people). If I wanted to talk to gay people I could talk to classmates. College had even more options. Any time I’m with a group that’s specifically for queers, it’s related to a local Jewish young professionals organization – religious young people in grad school or pursuing careers in various fields.

Demographics still play a huge role in this. If you are from rural south you know this all too well. If you know of another place where gay’s have an opportunity to congregate socially, other than a gay bar or hook-up sites on the internet, feel free to enlighten me.