re #3: Let’s take it further! Do “christian activists” believe that stripping ALL of the civil rights of TLBG Americans under the *secular* Constitution (right to sue in court, right to be free of discrimination, etc.) demonstrates the love of your Jesus?

Both French and his buddy Michael Brown like to draw a false distinction between openly gay individuals and “gay activists.” They claim to “love GLBT people” but “resist gay activism” as if the two are separate entities. They’re not.

1. They use the term “gay activist” as if it’s a bad thing. Activists are simply people who have been motivated to action in support or defense of a particular issue, position or group of individuals. French and Brown are far more committed “activists” than most average GLBT people, who simply want to be left alone to live their lives. French and Brown think nothing of attempting to disrupt a Pride celebration in the name of “love,” but if GLBT people attempted to disrupt their church services by gathering en masse in front of the church doors and pontificating for hours non-stop through a bullhorn, those inside the church would consider it “anti-Christian persecution.” But it’s not offensive at all for them to do it to us.

2. French and Brown consider any GLBT person who argues their right to live openly and honestly, free from discrimination, as an “activist.” You don’t need to be a member of a gay rights organization or worked in a marriage equality campaign. All you have to do is disagree with their point of view and voila–you are a “gay activist.” Which means they can now “resist” you. In love, of course. (And you don’t even need to be gay!)

3. Finally, I have a question for French: Yes or no… Do you believe that stripping health benefits from same-sex partners demonstrates the love of Jesus?

Here are a few:

http://gospelmasquerade.blogspot.com/2009/02/why-i-believe-ihop-is-cult.html

http://www.fellowshipofthemartyrs.com/mike_bickle_responses.htm

http://www.pitch.com/2002-10-10/news/return-of-the-prophets/

http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/2009/09/international_house_of_prayer_founder_denies_claims_of_cult_dom_kansas_city_grandview_missouri.php

The connections you’ve made to people from the UK *really* hits home, as the “leader” of the church that ousted me is English and had literally grown up with some of the people who are both directly and indirectly responsible for some of the stranger, more disturbing things that seem to be circulating from Western Europe to the US, Canad and back again. (YWAM DTS, the whole Third Wave/Transformations thing – i.e., Dominionism in a charismatic guise, etc.)

I truly believe that a great many charismatics – especially those involved in so-called “strategic level spiritual warfare” – have actually switched to a religion that is highly dualistic (like Zoroastrianism) – very different than historic Christianity, for the most part. (Though some of the language is retained, many of the beliefs aren’t – to my m ind, the big one that’s jettisoned is human responsibility for actions that are good, not-so-good and on down the line.)

To some extent, it seems that the “warfare” folks are in a real-life roleplaying game. The feeling that they can drive out the devil and “reclaim territory” for God gives them a sense of meaning and purpose – and it’s a huge distraction from dealing with the mundaneness of everyday life.

The thing is, those people, albeit well-intentioned, are involved in some truly frightening things that (as I’m sure you already know) go far beyond the ex-gay movement.

(As a sort of P.S., I’m still Christian, albeit of a rather different kind than I was for many years. )

It’s not unlike those days when children were forcibly “changed” from using our “unnatural” left hand into using our “natural” right hand. Still the same theological excuse, and just as destructive.

I also agree with you about even the most impressive testimonies of ex-gay “healing.” What many ex-gays seem to have achieved is the ability to manage their homosexual attractions, without necessarily changing the fundamental orientation.

IHOP, Toronto, et. al. are highly suspect on multiple counts (theologically), anyway… That people are actually believing that they’re somehow orthodox is deeply troubling.

as for these kinds of miraculous “conversion/healing” accounts, I’ve heard a few. The people who tend to claim “complete healing/deliverance” from homosexuality at a prayer service also say – 30+ years down the road – that they still feel powerful “same-sex attractions.” The dissonance between the two claims is quite striking (the self-deception involved even more so), and yet… as someone who was in the orbit of similar churches (far less crazy, though!), I’ve lived with my own internal contradictions (though they’re not the same ones, as I’m a straight-identified woman).

Can’t help thinking of Robert Burns’ line: Oh would some power the giftie gie us / to see ourselves as others see us.

Raised as a Pentecostal in Germany.
“Normal” family. Several kids. Felt gay ever since.
Was told it has something to do with a missing man image of my distanced father. So I believed that my realationship to Dad suppose to be even more close. But how close or far can it be?! At least the same “fact” happened to my brothers and sister as well as to so many friends in my church who weren’t gay, sexual abused or raised in a anti-social family.

I went through it all:
Self condemnation for more than two decades. Praying my heart out.
Ex-gay “therapy”.
And still today at the mid age, some christians think they could talk to me as to an three year old. They really think I just spiritually sleeping for my entire life …
They always know better, because they seem to made it all through in their own life (concerning homosexuality).

Things like Toronto blessing and Pensacola revival never made sense to me. I thought God is able to talk to me the way he created me, more realistic, down to earth. He never did. Just because I was not the way I suppose to be in his eyes? My God is definitely all-mighty in order to be able to deal with ME (his creation).

I guess, to be able to believe that, men with a strong conservative christian background definitely need a full breakdown in their life. Otherwise they always mix up the God of men (image) with the God Almighty (of love, sovereignty, righteousness) which is and ever will be beyond human understanding.

Why would believers want God to be so “small” (human)?!
Their inner condition might give them an answer.

Even when things do not work out the way we (or others) would wish they will – could God really be irritated at all?!
Does a God really need tools like fear, control, oppression?
I always thought he created men to have fellowship with them, no matter what. And he even installed us a free will and a common sense?
Who would be interested to keep us as a three year old?

Believe it or not, I feel so free with in myself concerning my homosexuality (which has nothing to do with a narrow minded red-light milieu thinking)
I can breathe for the first time in body, soul, mind and spirit. I like the expression of the biblical sign of an rainbow in Genesis 9:12-13: And God said, This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come.

Unfortunately this is a miracle that does not happen over night, nor through spritiual activities and services, if we believe in longterm testimonies.
The truth will set us free, whether we like or not.

Some Christians might have a certain desire to “negotiate” with their being.
I, myself found real peace, love and happiness.
Thank you God for the gift of my (homo) sexuality.

The Amazing Randi got a McArthur Genius Award for exposing the fraud and the lies spewed by these hucksters, and this sad case with the young man is no exception.

No one is truly healed, endorphins and the limbic system can do amazing things once stimulated enough, but the underlying cause is still there.

There’s NO such thing as a “cured” homosexual! All that’s done is a change of *behaviour* — give me enough time and electricity and I can have the hardiest heterosexual man go looking for glory holes! But it still doesn’t mean he’s gay. There are far, far more ex-ex-gays telling horror stories of these so-called “cures”.

But what was odd about these two was that they were like night and day. The evangelical fellow was almost chummy towards the two of us on the site who were gay. While the pentacostal fellow seemed to have this need to bring out every homophobic Narth, Paul Cameron, LaBarbera, FRC, AFA FotF, etc. lie about gay people that he could find. So every time he did so all I did was ask him if the lie fit his life of 14 years as gay man. Seems like every answer I got was, ‘no.’ The last lie he came up with was every gay man was a pedophile who abused hundreds of young male children. So I flat out asked him how many boys did he abuse during his claimed 14 years as a gay man. I never got an answer.

Well, he might have been an abuser, but I doubt it. I wondered for a while if he had to convince himself of the evil of being gay to get over it and thus immersed himself in self-loathing homophobia. But I tended to think the whole time that he had no conception of what it meant to be gay – and never was. Because it seems that compared to our evangelical website companion our pentacostal one had no real/true feelings of humanity towards us.

So every time I see a Pentacostal item like this I wonder if the person truly has that human connection with his homosexual orientation. Maybe… maybe not…