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	<title>Comments on: XGW Digest: July 4, 2009</title>
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	<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/xgw-digest-july-4-2009/</link>
	<description>News and analysis of exgay politics and culture.</description>
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		<title>By: Timothy (TRiG)</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/xgw-digest-july-4-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-33646</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy (TRiG)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4735#comment-33646</guid>
		<description>Jay, I think you might be interested in this discussion: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/t6753440&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Has homophobia ruined straight male/male bonding?&lt;/a&gt;

TRiG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, I think you might be interested in this discussion: <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/t6753440" rel="nofollow">Has homophobia ruined straight male/male bonding?</a></p>
<p>TRiG.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan S</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/xgw-digest-july-4-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-33628</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 03:04:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4735#comment-33628</guid>
		<description>City debates gay rights: One of &#039;Chico&#039;s five&#039; files complaint with police
By Darren Meritz / El Paso Times
Posted: 07/10/2009 12:00:00 AM MDT

(brief overview of article)

EL PASO -- A kiss between two men that got them and three friends thrown out of a Chico&#039;s Tacos restaurant has become the backdrop of a citywide debate on gay rights.

The men, all gay, were at the Chico&#039;s Tacos on Montwood on June 29 when a contracted security guard saw two of them kiss, then used a pejorative before forcing them to leave, said Carlos Diaz de Leon, one of the five.

Diaz de Leon said police exacerbated the conflict when they arrived and threatened to charge the men with a state statute prohibiting homosexual conduct, even though the law was declared unconstitutional years ago.

Making matters worse, an El Paso police spokesman later said the restaurant can refuse service to anyone and the men could have been charged with criminal trespass.

The men were told to leave by restaurant security guards as several people, including one of the guards, called police. An officer arrived about an hour later and told the men it was illegal for them to kiss in public, &lt;strong&gt;citing the Texas law on homosexual conduct the U.S. Supreme Court ruled unconstitutional in 2003.&lt;/strong&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.elpasotimes.com/ci_12806702?source=most_emailed&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;(COMPLETE ARTICLE)&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>City debates gay rights: One of &#8216;Chico&#8217;s five&#8217; files complaint with police<br />
By Darren Meritz / El Paso Times<br />
Posted: 07/10/2009 12:00:00 AM MDT</p>
<p>(brief overview of article)</p>
<p>EL PASO &#8212; A kiss between two men that got them and three friends thrown out of a Chico&#8217;s Tacos restaurant has become the backdrop of a citywide debate on gay rights.</p>
<p>The men, all gay, were at the Chico&#8217;s Tacos on Montwood on June 29 when a contracted security guard saw two of them kiss, then used a pejorative before forcing them to leave, said Carlos Diaz de Leon, one of the five.</p>
<p>Diaz de Leon said police exacerbated the conflict when they arrived and threatened to charge the men with a state statute prohibiting homosexual conduct, even though the law was declared unconstitutional years ago.</p>
<p>Making matters worse, an El Paso police spokesman later said the restaurant can refuse service to anyone and the men could have been charged with criminal trespass.</p>
<p>The men were told to leave by restaurant security guards as several people, including one of the guards, called police. An officer arrived about an hour later and told the men it was illegal for them to kiss in public, <strong>citing the Texas law on homosexual conduct the U.S. Supreme Court ruled unconstitutional in 2003.</strong></p>
<p><a href="http://www.elpasotimes.com/ci_12806702?source=most_emailed" rel="nofollow">(COMPLETE ARTICLE)</a></p>
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		<title>By: toujoursdan</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/xgw-digest-july-4-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-33597</link>
		<dc:creator>toujoursdan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 20:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4735#comment-33597</guid>
		<description>You can add  Mali, Niger and Tchad to the list. 

Also, Guinea-Bissau and Albania, both of which signed the UN Declaration calling for the decriminalization of homosexuality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can add  Mali, Niger and Tchad to the list. </p>
<p>Also, Guinea-Bissau and Albania, both of which signed the UN Declaration calling for the decriminalization of homosexuality.</p>
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		<title>By: grantdale</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/xgw-digest-july-4-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-33596</link>
		<dc:creator>grantdale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4735#comment-33596</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;&lt;I&gt;Off the top of my head, is there any country 50%+ Muslim where homosexuality is not criminalized?&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;

Indonesia (except for Muslim residents in Aceh, 85% Muslim). The largest Muslim nation, but also largely secular despite a rise (and recent fall) in Islamic extremism. I don&#039;t think it&#039;s ever been illegal -- at least, probably not since 1811 when the laws were dropped in the Netherlands itself.

Turkey (99%, legal since 1858). Secular.

Jordan (95%, legal since 1951)

Tajikistan (97%), Azerbaijan (95%), Kyrgyzstan (75%), Kazakhstan (55%) -- all former USSR.

and Iraq.

That said... none have any anti-discrimination Acts, and in several places extra/non judicial violence is a serious problem (including honour killings); especially in particular areas dominated by religious cranks. I wouldn&#039;t recommend Iraq to GLBT tourists. Yet.

(Indonesians are fairly tolerant as a whole -- better than many areas of the USA I dare say -- but you need to be aware of your surrounds when in, say, the city of Solo which is home to the thugs from Jemaah Islamiyah.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b><i>Off the top of my head, is there any country 50%+ Muslim where homosexuality is not criminalized?</i></b></p>
<p>Indonesia (except for Muslim residents in Aceh, 85% Muslim). The largest Muslim nation, but also largely secular despite a rise (and recent fall) in Islamic extremism. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s ever been illegal &#8212; at least, probably not since 1811 when the laws were dropped in the Netherlands itself.</p>
<p>Turkey (99%, legal since 1858). Secular.</p>
<p>Jordan (95%, legal since 1951)</p>
<p>Tajikistan (97%), Azerbaijan (95%), Kyrgyzstan (75%), Kazakhstan (55%) &#8212; all former USSR.</p>
<p>and Iraq.</p>
<p>That said&#8230; none have any anti-discrimination Acts, and in several places extra/non judicial violence is a serious problem (including honour killings); especially in particular areas dominated by religious cranks. I wouldn&#8217;t recommend Iraq to GLBT tourists. Yet.</p>
<p>(Indonesians are fairly tolerant as a whole &#8212; better than many areas of the USA I dare say &#8212; but you need to be aware of your surrounds when in, say, the city of Solo which is home to the thugs from Jemaah Islamiyah.)</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy (TRiG)</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/xgw-digest-july-4-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-33593</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy (TRiG)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 13:32:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4735#comment-33593</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Our stand has always been very clear. The church has no serious objection to decriminalising homosexuality between consenting adults, the church has never considered homosexuals as criminals,&quot; said Father Emanuel.
&lt;a href=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8129836.stm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;BBC News&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It is an encouraging way of thinking. Let&#039;s hope it spreads.

TRiG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;Our stand has always been very clear. The church has no serious objection to decriminalising homosexuality between consenting adults, the church has never considered homosexuals as criminals,&#8221; said Father Emanuel.<br />
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8129836.stm" rel="nofollow">BBC News</a></p></blockquote>
<p>It is an encouraging way of thinking. Let&#8217;s hope it spreads.</p>
<p>TRiG.</p>
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		<title>By: Ephilei</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/xgw-digest-july-4-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-33592</link>
		<dc:creator>Ephilei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 04:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4735#comment-33592</guid>
		<description>@Timothy

India is &gt;80% Hindu. There are nearly as many Christians in India as Muslims. 

I studied Islam a great deal and discovered that the term &quot;scholar&quot; is thrown around often to refer to positive PR spin. There was a gap in the time between when I studied Islam and gay/transgender issues, but my immediate response is that it&#039;s easy to make a case of criminalizing homosexual acts in Islam - extra-marital sex like pre-marital sex and adultery are criminalized and lesbian and gay couples can&#039;t marry, so all their sex is extra-marital and thus criminal. I suggest reading this article: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/homosexual.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Islamic law and its punishments for homosexuality&lt;/a&gt; 

Off the top of my head, is there any country 50%+ Muslim where homosexuality is not criminalized?

@Everyone else

Seeing the way women are portrayed in comics by (I assume, mainly) heterosexual men, I&#039;m extremely surprised there have been many, many lesbian kisses already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Timothy</p>
<p>India is &gt;80% Hindu. There are nearly as many Christians in India as Muslims. </p>
<p>I studied Islam a great deal and discovered that the term &#8220;scholar&#8221; is thrown around often to refer to positive PR spin. There was a gap in the time between when I studied Islam and gay/transgender issues, but my immediate response is that it&#8217;s easy to make a case of criminalizing homosexual acts in Islam &#8211; extra-marital sex like pre-marital sex and adultery are criminalized and lesbian and gay couples can&#8217;t marry, so all their sex is extra-marital and thus criminal. I suggest reading this article: <a href="http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/homosexual.htm" rel="nofollow">Islamic law and its punishments for homosexuality</a> </p>
<p>Off the top of my head, is there any country 50%+ Muslim where homosexuality is not criminalized?</p>
<p>@Everyone else</p>
<p>Seeing the way women are portrayed in comics by (I assume, mainly) heterosexual men, I&#8217;m extremely surprised there have been many, many lesbian kisses already.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy (TRiG)</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/xgw-digest-july-4-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-33589</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy (TRiG)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4735#comment-33589</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;‘‘The Quran condemns homosexuality, but doesn’t prescribe any punishment for it. It’s a sin, not a crime. Sin is between Allah and the sinner, but crime concerns the entire society. So, sexual minorities should be left to their conscience. They are answerable to Allah for their act and should not be treated as criminals,’’ said Islamic scholar Asghar Ali Engineer.
&lt;a href=&quot;http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Homosexuality-immoral-but-not-criminal-Religious-leaders/articleshow/4736152.cms&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Times of India&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Also, it seems likely that the ruling in the Delhi High Court applies &lt;a href=&quot;http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Will-Delhi-HC-gay-order-apply-across-India/articleshow/4731089.cms&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;across the entire country&lt;/a&gt;!

Isn&#039;t India the world&#039;s largest democracy? This is big news.

TRiG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>‘‘The Quran condemns homosexuality, but doesn’t prescribe any punishment for it. It’s a sin, not a crime. Sin is between Allah and the sinner, but crime concerns the entire society. So, sexual minorities should be left to their conscience. They are answerable to Allah for their act and should not be treated as criminals,’’ said Islamic scholar Asghar Ali Engineer.<br />
<a href="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Homosexuality-immoral-but-not-criminal-Religious-leaders/articleshow/4736152.cms" rel="nofollow"><em>Times of India</em></a></p></blockquote>
<p>Also, it seems likely that the ruling in the Delhi High Court applies <a href="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Will-Delhi-HC-gay-order-apply-across-India/articleshow/4731089.cms" rel="nofollow">across the entire country</a>!</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t India the world&#8217;s largest democracy? This is big news.</p>
<p>TRiG.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/xgw-digest-july-4-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-33588</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 00:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4735#comment-33588</guid>
		<description>I think an &lt;i&gt;X-Men&lt;/i&gt; title is more mainstream than those, even though the two characters in question are relatively minor.  Plus, I really can&#039;t recall any other on-panel kiss between two male characters, so it is significant.  Comics have a mostly male fan-base, so a kiss between two attractive super-heroines (like Karolina and Xavin in &lt;i&gt;Runaways&lt;/i&gt;) is less risky than two male characters.

Northstar has been an openly gay member of the X-Men since the late 90s, I believe, but as I complained, he hasn&#039;t had any sort of romantic relationships at all, just an unrequited crush on a heterosexual team member, Iceman.

I certainly think having a gay male couple is good for the &lt;i&gt;X-Men&lt;/i&gt; universe, especially since that series has often been about combating prejudice and intolerance.  They&#039;ve even tackled issues of religious tolerance towards homosexuality, since the character Nightcrawler (a devout Catholic) had problems when the openly gay Northstar joined the team.

It&#039;s just that using these two characters doesn&#039;t seem that helpful to me.  At the very least, like Emily said, it&#039;s just not that great of storytelling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think an <i>X-Men</i> title is more mainstream than those, even though the two characters in question are relatively minor.  Plus, I really can&#8217;t recall any other on-panel kiss between two male characters, so it is significant.  Comics have a mostly male fan-base, so a kiss between two attractive super-heroines (like Karolina and Xavin in <i>Runaways</i>) is less risky than two male characters.</p>
<p>Northstar has been an openly gay member of the X-Men since the late 90s, I believe, but as I complained, he hasn&#8217;t had any sort of romantic relationships at all, just an unrequited crush on a heterosexual team member, Iceman.</p>
<p>I certainly think having a gay male couple is good for the <i>X-Men</i> universe, especially since that series has often been about combating prejudice and intolerance.  They&#8217;ve even tackled issues of religious tolerance towards homosexuality, since the character Nightcrawler (a devout Catholic) had problems when the openly gay Northstar joined the team.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just that using these two characters doesn&#8217;t seem that helpful to me.  At the very least, like Emily said, it&#8217;s just not that great of storytelling.</p>
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		<title>By: Kith</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/xgw-digest-july-4-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-33587</link>
		<dc:creator>Kith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 23:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Comic book first?  So we ignore Runaways, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Strangers in Paradise?  Or is this the first male gay kiss? Or are we very narrowly defining Mainstream?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comic book first?  So we ignore Runaways, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Strangers in Paradise?  Or is this the first male gay kiss? Or are we very narrowly defining Mainstream?</p>
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		<title>By: Emily K</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/xgw-digest-july-4-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-33586</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 23:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4735#comment-33586</guid>
		<description>Jay, I have that same kind of conflicted thought - about straight characters. It seems that if the two unrelated straight characters share a close bond they are destined to eventually have sex with one another, even if they end up &quot;going back to being just friends&quot; afterwards. Not sure why this is. 

On the one hand it&#039;s nice to be represented in the comics. On the other, can&#039;t we do better as a whole when it comes to storytelling? I think so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, I have that same kind of conflicted thought &#8211; about straight characters. It seems that if the two unrelated straight characters share a close bond they are destined to eventually have sex with one another, even if they end up &#8220;going back to being just friends&#8221; afterwards. Not sure why this is. </p>
<p>On the one hand it&#8217;s nice to be represented in the comics. On the other, can&#8217;t we do better as a whole when it comes to storytelling? I think so.</p>
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