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	<title>Comments on: Mainline Denominational Ministries Merge with Exodus</title>
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		<title>By: Harmless Eccentric</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/exodus-merges-with-mainline-denominational-ministries/comment-page-1/#comment-33691</link>
		<dc:creator>Harmless Eccentric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 00:18:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4781#comment-33691</guid>
		<description>For the record: I can&#039;t speak about the other organizations, but &quot;Transforming Congregations&quot; isn&#039;t an official body of the United Methodist Church, but an independent organization working for change within the UMC- like &quot;Reconciling Ministries Network,&quot; the GLBT-affirming group.  Neither group gets UMC funding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record: I can&#8217;t speak about the other organizations, but &#8220;Transforming Congregations&#8221; isn&#8217;t an official body of the United Methodist Church, but an independent organization working for change within the UMC- like &#8220;Reconciling Ministries Network,&#8221; the GLBT-affirming group.  Neither group gets UMC funding.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Airhart</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/exodus-merges-with-mainline-denominational-ministries/comment-page-1/#comment-33688</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Airhart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4781#comment-33688</guid>
		<description>Richard Rush is correct: Truth Wins Out chose its name partly as a response to the runaway abuse of the words &quot;truth&quot; and &quot;love&quot; by religious rightists.

I believe it is important to reclaim the words truth and love from Orwellian Ministries of Truth (Misinformation) and Ministries of Love (Self-Love and Hatred of Diversity).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Rush is correct: Truth Wins Out chose its name partly as a response to the runaway abuse of the words &#8220;truth&#8221; and &#8220;love&#8221; by religious rightists.</p>
<p>I believe it is important to reclaim the words truth and love from Orwellian Ministries of Truth (Misinformation) and Ministries of Love (Self-Love and Hatred of Diversity).</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/exodus-merges-with-mainline-denominational-ministries/comment-page-1/#comment-33662</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4781#comment-33662</guid>
		<description>I absolutely agree with you concerning these groups’ misuse of the word “truth”. What gets me even more, however, is their misuse of the words “compassion” and “compassionate”, which appear in so many ex-gay publications. 

The words derive from the Latin words &lt;em&gt;cum &lt;/em&gt; (with) and &lt;em&gt;pati &lt;/em&gt; (to suffer), so the root meaning of “compassion” is “suffering with”. Now some gay people are undoubtedly suffering, but not from being gay. As the late Dominican Gareth Moore wrote:

&lt;blockquote&gt;…it takes courage and a lot of belief in yourself to be happy when you are told, or it is intimated to you constantly, that you are an outsider, defective, perverted, laughable, or a sufferer from a condition. It is not surprising that people in that condition sometimes end up frightened, miserable and bitter and that some even kill themselves. But, to repeat, what they are suffering from is not homosexuality but inhumanity.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But these ex-gay enthusiasts don’t want to “suffer with” those who are suffering from such inhumanity, and, so far from trying to remove the suffering, they want it to continue. In fact, some of them, e.g. Scott Lively, would like to increase it as much as possible. So they can take their “compassion” and they can shove it…</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I absolutely agree with you concerning these groups’ misuse of the word “truth”. What gets me even more, however, is their misuse of the words “compassion” and “compassionate”, which appear in so many ex-gay publications. </p>
<p>The words derive from the Latin words <em>cum </em> (with) and <em>pati </em> (to suffer), so the root meaning of “compassion” is “suffering with”. Now some gay people are undoubtedly suffering, but not from being gay. As the late Dominican Gareth Moore wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>…it takes courage and a lot of belief in yourself to be happy when you are told, or it is intimated to you constantly, that you are an outsider, defective, perverted, laughable, or a sufferer from a condition. It is not surprising that people in that condition sometimes end up frightened, miserable and bitter and that some even kill themselves. But, to repeat, what they are suffering from is not homosexuality but inhumanity.</p></blockquote>
<p>But these ex-gay enthusiasts don’t want to “suffer with” those who are suffering from such inhumanity, and, so far from trying to remove the suffering, they want it to continue. In fact, some of them, e.g. Scott Lively, would like to increase it as much as possible. So they can take their “compassion” and they can shove it…</p>
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		<title>By: Ephilei</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/exodus-merges-with-mainline-denominational-ministries/comment-page-1/#comment-33660</link>
		<dc:creator>Ephilei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:12:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4781#comment-33660</guid>
		<description>What Exodus means by &quot;reduce the culture-war dichotomy&quot; is beyond me. I give Exodus some credit because in the 70s when the started, the Church&#039;s response to Christian LGBs was to ignore them or simply say they were destined for hell. But the Church has grown a lot since then and Exodus&#039; response is now the standard response, not an improvement, and keeps us from making more progress.

Also, what Christians like Chambers mean by Exodus not &quot;condemning the sin&quot; is also beyond me. I think everyone ought to look of &quot;condemn&quot; in a dictionary. &quot;to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence and without reservation 2 a: to pronounce guilty 3: to adjudge unfit for use or consumption.&quot; Exodus condemns homosexuality wrong in every sense of the word.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Exodus means by &#8220;reduce the culture-war dichotomy&#8221; is beyond me. I give Exodus some credit because in the 70s when the started, the Church&#8217;s response to Christian LGBs was to ignore them or simply say they were destined for hell. But the Church has grown a lot since then and Exodus&#8217; response is now the standard response, not an improvement, and keeps us from making more progress.</p>
<p>Also, what Christians like Chambers mean by Exodus not &#8220;condemning the sin&#8221; is also beyond me. I think everyone ought to look of &#8220;condemn&#8221; in a dictionary. &#8220;to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence and without reservation 2 a: to pronounce guilty 3: to adjudge unfit for use or consumption.&#8221; Exodus condemns homosexuality wrong in every sense of the word.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan S</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/exodus-merges-with-mainline-denominational-ministries/comment-page-1/#comment-33659</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:13:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4781#comment-33659</guid>
		<description>Richard Rush:
&lt;blockquote&gt;My observation is that there is an inverse relationship between the frequency of using the word ‘truth’, and the actual truth. When there is no credible evidence for a belief, all that’s left is to repeatedly insist it is true.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I couldn&#039;t agree more. While I was living in Long Beach, a friend of mine moved there as well. He became involved in a church that indoctrinated him on &quot;The Truth.&quot; It was like a catch phrase for him.

The problem I have with Christians using that word is that &quot;the truth&quot; is not on the surface of Scripture or Tradition, but rather deep inside of them. My friend would use the typical passages to condemn my &quot;lifestyle&quot; and &quot;choice&quot; without digging deeper into &quot;the Truth.&quot; And when I would have a valid argument of which he could not reply, he would just reply that I need to know &quot;The Truth.&quot; Therefore, I equate &quot;The Truth&quot; with &quot;because I say so.&quot;

It&#039;s sad that the majority of Christians no longer question their faith. In the history of Christianity, for example, in order to canonize a saint, there was a devil&#039;s advocate whose job was to doubt and question the validity of a potential candidate&#039;s canonization. Doubt, investigation, finding new insights has been as much a part of Christianity as dogmatic pronoucements that are not to be questioned. Even the great theologians of all streams of Christianity have doubted, debated, and questioned Scripture, interpretations of Scripture, Tradition, traditions and customs, etc.

The merger of these various ex-gay ministries is a sign that their days are numbered, even for Exodus. I am sure there will be ex-gay ministries out their, but as the fruit of their labors becomes more apparant to the Christian community, many will see them for what they are and have a change of heart. At least that is my hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Rush:</p>
<blockquote><p>My observation is that there is an inverse relationship between the frequency of using the word ‘truth’, and the actual truth. When there is no credible evidence for a belief, all that’s left is to repeatedly insist it is true.</p></blockquote>
<p>I couldn&#8217;t agree more. While I was living in Long Beach, a friend of mine moved there as well. He became involved in a church that indoctrinated him on &#8220;The Truth.&#8221; It was like a catch phrase for him.</p>
<p>The problem I have with Christians using that word is that &#8220;the truth&#8221; is not on the surface of Scripture or Tradition, but rather deep inside of them. My friend would use the typical passages to condemn my &#8220;lifestyle&#8221; and &#8220;choice&#8221; without digging deeper into &#8220;the Truth.&#8221; And when I would have a valid argument of which he could not reply, he would just reply that I need to know &#8220;The Truth.&#8221; Therefore, I equate &#8220;The Truth&#8221; with &#8220;because I say so.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s sad that the majority of Christians no longer question their faith. In the history of Christianity, for example, in order to canonize a saint, there was a devil&#8217;s advocate whose job was to doubt and question the validity of a potential candidate&#8217;s canonization. Doubt, investigation, finding new insights has been as much a part of Christianity as dogmatic pronoucements that are not to be questioned. Even the great theologians of all streams of Christianity have doubted, debated, and questioned Scripture, interpretations of Scripture, Tradition, traditions and customs, etc.</p>
<p>The merger of these various ex-gay ministries is a sign that their days are numbered, even for Exodus. I am sure there will be ex-gay ministries out their, but as the fruit of their labors becomes more apparant to the Christian community, many will see them for what they are and have a change of heart. At least that is my hope.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Rush</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/exodus-merges-with-mainline-denominational-ministries/comment-page-1/#comment-33658</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Rush</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:35:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4781#comment-33658</guid>
		<description>Lynn David wrote: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;And btw… Christians bandy about the word ‘truth’ so much so that it almost becomes a worthless term in their vocabulary.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
My observation is that there is an inverse relationship between the frequency of using the word &#039;truth&#039;, and the actual truth. When there is no credible evidence for a belief, all that&#039;s left is to repeatedly insist it is true. The continual insistence and repetition can turn any nonsense into something I call Magic Truth.

I&#039;ve also noticed that when an organization&#039;s name includes the word &#039;truth&#039;, it is usually a good indicator that truth is the one thing they are &lt;strong&gt;not &lt;/strong&gt;about. That&#039;s why I winced a little bit when Wayne Besen named his organization Truth Wins Out (although I think that choice was probably a response to the dishonesty of anti-gay groups using the word).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lynn David wrote: </p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;And btw… Christians bandy about the word ‘truth’ so much so that it almost becomes a worthless term in their vocabulary.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>My observation is that there is an inverse relationship between the frequency of using the word &#8216;truth&#8217;, and the actual truth. When there is no credible evidence for a belief, all that&#8217;s left is to repeatedly insist it is true. The continual insistence and repetition can turn any nonsense into something I call Magic Truth.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also noticed that when an organization&#8217;s name includes the word &#8216;truth&#8217;, it is usually a good indicator that truth is the one thing they are <strong>not </strong>about. That&#8217;s why I winced a little bit when Wayne Besen named his organization Truth Wins Out (although I think that choice was probably a response to the dishonesty of anti-gay groups using the word).</p>
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		<title>By: Lynn David</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/exodus-merges-with-mainline-denominational-ministries/comment-page-1/#comment-33657</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 06:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4781#comment-33657</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;&lt;em&gt;&quot;&lt;em&gt;The compassionate &lt;strong&gt;truth&lt;/strong&gt; of the gospel is still the hope of the world today&lt;/em&gt;,&quot; said Alan Chambers... &quot;&lt;em&gt;Together, we hope to advance a new era in the global Christian church that is defined by God&#039;s &lt;strong&gt;truth&lt;/strong&gt; as well as His heart for hurting individuals experiencing confusion and conflict about their sexuality&lt;/em&gt;.&quot; 

While the culture war has taken us into a polarization of either condemning the sin or condoning the behavior, Exodus and these groups are speaking into it redemptively and we&#039;re saying we can hold on to &lt;strong&gt;truth&lt;/strong&gt; but at the same time have compassion, have grace, have mercy and have resources available to those who do want to overcome homosexuality&lt;/em&gt;.&quot; -- Randy Thomas.

Exodus leaders say navigating the fine line between loving homosexuals and communicating to them the &lt;strong&gt;truth&lt;/strong&gt; of Scripture is the real challenge facing Christians. &lt;/blockquote&gt; 
Sound like the same tired, old rhetoric to me, just repackaged and reformatted to look like they&#039;re actually doing something to justify their salaries.   And btw... Christians bandy about the word &#039;truth&#039; so much so that it almost becomes a worthless term in their vocabulary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;<em>&#8220;</em><em>The compassionate <strong>truth</strong> of the gospel is still the hope of the world today</em>,&#8221; said Alan Chambers&#8230; &#8220;<em>Together, we hope to advance a new era in the global Christian church that is defined by God&#8217;s <strong>truth</strong> as well as His heart for hurting individuals experiencing confusion and conflict about their sexuality</em>.&#8221; </p>
<p>While the culture war has taken us into a polarization of either condemning the sin or condoning the behavior, Exodus and these groups are speaking into it redemptively and we&#8217;re saying we can hold on to <strong>truth</strong> but at the same time have compassion, have grace, have mercy and have resources available to those who do want to overcome homosexuality.&#8221; &#8212; Randy Thomas.</p>
<p>Exodus leaders say navigating the fine line between loving homosexuals and communicating to them the <strong>truth</strong> of Scripture is the real challenge facing Christians. </p></blockquote>
<p>Sound like the same tired, old rhetoric to me, just repackaged and reformatted to look like they&#8217;re actually doing something to justify their salaries.   And btw&#8230; Christians bandy about the word &#8216;truth&#8217; so much so that it almost becomes a worthless term in their vocabulary.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Farrell</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/exodus-merges-with-mainline-denominational-ministries/comment-page-1/#comment-33656</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4781#comment-33656</guid>
		<description>Conservatives are not isolated in the Methodist church, they&#039;ve long since taken over and marginalized the liberals. I have a number of friends who are liberal methodist ministers, and they feel very isolated and excluded from the mainstream of their denomination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Conservatives are not isolated in the Methodist church, they&#8217;ve long since taken over and marginalized the liberals. I have a number of friends who are liberal methodist ministers, and they feel very isolated and excluded from the mainstream of their denomination.</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/exodus-merges-with-mainline-denominational-ministries/comment-page-1/#comment-33655</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4781#comment-33655</guid>
		<description>Thank you for that info about Alan Chambers&#039;s book, David.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for that info about Alan Chambers&#8217;s book, David.</p>
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		<title>By: David Roberts</title>
		<link>http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/07/exodus-merges-with-mainline-denominational-ministries/comment-page-1/#comment-33654</link>
		<dc:creator>David Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/?p=4781#comment-33654</guid>
		<description>I read it.  I rarely say this because I think people should remain informed about these things, but I wouldn&#039;t even bother.  It&#039;s barely more than a booklet and two chapters weren&#039;t even written by Alan.  It&#039;s really pathetic and disappointing, even for what one might expect from him.  I believe we have a review coming up with more detail, but I suspect this was a quick book to generate some sales at conferences and the like.  

As for the merging of these groups, does anyone not think lack of funds is behind a large part of this?  These are marginal ministries at best, even Exodus, outside the &quot;ex-gay world&quot; is a tiny concern.  With the current state of the economy, I doubt there is enough to sustain the other two and they both contributed to Exodus anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read it.  I rarely say this because I think people should remain informed about these things, but I wouldn&#8217;t even bother.  It&#8217;s barely more than a booklet and two chapters weren&#8217;t even written by Alan.  It&#8217;s really pathetic and disappointing, even for what one might expect from him.  I believe we have a review coming up with more detail, but I suspect this was a quick book to generate some sales at conferences and the like.  </p>
<p>As for the merging of these groups, does anyone not think lack of funds is behind a large part of this?  These are marginal ministries at best, even Exodus, outside the &#8220;ex-gay world&#8221; is a tiny concern.  With the current state of the economy, I doubt there is enough to sustain the other two and they both contributed to Exodus anyway.</p>
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