Ex-Gay Watch

Alan -
Yeah, by “mainstream”, I was implying here in the USA, and even moreso – those who have taken to pushing for more and more legislation to force others to adhere to “our” morals. And while, in terms of number in America, that would be Protestants instead of Catholics, my real point was that those of us in the church (and I’m speaking universally) should be interested in holding each other accountable for upholding the standards (Biblical in general and the example of Christ in particular) of the faith, and NOT hypocritically condemning, judging, and treating others with anything BUT love.

But regardless of who “mainstream” Christianity refers to, we once again seem to be in agreement: this time that our personal beliefs shouldn’t be mandated by law, and enforced on others (though lobbying for, or voting for laws that protect our rights and the rights of those we disagree with – might even be seen as Christian duty).

So I’m not sure if your numbered list was meant to be corrective, or if you were just elaborating, or if it wasn’t really addressed to me at all.

Greg:

And yeah, by no means did I expect anything I wrote to be so compelling that people would start denouncing their homosexuality and declaring me the “Great Emancipator”.

That’s good, because no one should have to denounce their homosexuality, especially in order to be a part of a Christian community, or of any religion for that matter.

The emancipation comes when we accept ourselves, love ourselves, and realize the good that comes from our sexual orientation and know that we are loved by G-d. I think many of us here have had such an emancipation or have come here seeking it.

Please forgive my comment as an ignorant, narrow-sighted mis-statement, that won’t be repeated.

Well Greg you’re certainly forgiven, and I thank you for your humbleness but please know my intent isn’t to beat-up but simply to try to educate a bit. I think that the Benedict Arnold reference is fitting. As long as there is an understanding from both sides it’s fine. Likewise, if you had come back and said “the Word of G0d tells me my usage is correct” then I wouldn’t have been able to respond either way. I gave you the article, quietly made a suggestion.. that’s as far as I can go in this setting and really as far as I want to go.

David R — you have an unenviable job. You know we know that, and thank-you

We haven’t been in the best of form these past couple of days.

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That said…

I am still sitting and posting while I look at a sky that was trying to decide all weekend if it be dull grey or brilliant orange. A freakish orange-red that carries the dust of inflamed forests, and the ashes of loved ones that have been incinerated within them. They float above us, and fall.

For the past week we have suffered under 110degF+ days. On Saturday we got a cool change. A ‘Blessed” relief. But that cool change sent winds that blew back the fires and scorched the living daylights out of entire communities. Men. Women. Children. Gay. Straight. Saved and Unsaved.

As daylight fell into dusk we listened as the helicopters flew over our insignificant house and dropped their cargo into the Alfred Hospital. Again and again. By 10pm we already knew a tragedy had occurred; as we always do, by counting the helicopters. Today we are trying to comfort those who have lost. We are grateful we have not lost personally, but anguish for our friends that have. Our sister is safe, our nieces are safe — the flames at St Andrews did not keep eating their way south.

I spoke this morning to someone who knew ‘dozens’ of people from her home town — people she grew with — people who have all evaporated into that terrible-beautiful, grey-orange sky that drops it’s dust on my streets. Men, women, children.

Greg, you and your autistic focus is irrelevant. Mere dust of dust, honestly.

Also, I thought I asked you to desist. Don’t compound rude with oblivious.

grantdale,
My thoughts have been about you two. I have watched the news and immediately wondered how you were affected. Thanks for the update and best wishes.

I also thought about you and yours when I saw a report of the fires down under. I don’t think I quite caught the enormity of the thing until a later broadcast. We’ve had our share, both as a nation and local to me. Fortunately, it is usually mostly property that goes up in flames, albeit with a lot of life’s trappings. But life is the important thing. Stay safe you guys.

And Greg, one of the things you will know if you stick around a bit longer, is that grantdale (that is grant and dale, two people) are not known for beating about the bush on anything. And I think we have all had a moment when they were a bit annoying, but the annoyance is mostly because they have an irascible habit of being correct. They are part of what makes up XGW, and if you were to react to them without knowing that, you would miss a lot.

grant & dale … i hope you two stay safe.

You all sound like judgemental hypocrites who have never been through any kind of self confusion or turmoil in your entire lives!!!! If you really want to be helpful to anyone like Ted Haggard, your best action (instead of ripping him apart on a blog site) would be to pray for him to find his way to peace. Just because we live in a free country where you can say what you want to say, does not mean that you SHOULD say what you want to say, especially if it means tearing someone apart! And even more specifically, if you call yourself a Christian, it is supposed to be your living practice to not be judgemental of those who have fallen into their temptations. I said these words to make you think, what if it was YOU having all of your inner demons exposed. You would not want someone who does not even know you judging you. Please be mindful that this person (even if he was wrong) is still just that: a PERSON, A HUMAN! We are not above mistakes, which is why God sent, Jesus: to redeem us from our humanity. Please remember that the next time you see someone being ripped apart by our national media.

Renee, considering the abuse he subjected certain young gay members of his flock to, I wouldn’t be so quick to come to his defense. I also wouldn’t merely dismiss it as “falling into his temptations.” Pastors who “fall into” the “temptation” of being abusive to a vulnerable member of their flock – all the while railing against the things they embody – deserve all of the scrutiny they get.

Renee:

Please be mindful that this person (even if he was wrong) is still just that: a PERSON, A HUMAN! We are not above mistakes, which is why God sent, Jesus: to redeem us from our humanity. Please remember that the next time you see someone being ripped apart by our national media.

Being an Orthodox Christian, I am “ripped apart” by the likes of Haggard and others just for being an Orthodox Christian. And then being gay just adds to their hateful speech. All the while Haggard and the likes take on an atmosphere of being “perfect” because they have “found” Christ (as if he were playing “Hide and Seek.”) Yes, “we are not above mistakes,” but to say we are to not comment on his behavior nor to condemn it is anti-Christian. And to point out a false teacher or one who is teaching in error is something we are called to do as Christians.

But going beyond the Christian aspect of this, just as human beings we are responsible to expose those who ABUSE others for their own sake. Haggard used and abused people directly and indirectly for his own ego. He used at least one man in his congregation for his own sexual pleasure, a young man who was seeking spiritual guidance not a sexual encounter. And Haggard lied and lived a double life … condemning homosexuality and indoctrinating others to hate the LGBT people, to say we are not children of G-d, while doing the very things he was condemning. And apparently his church was covering up for him.

By the fruits of their labor shall you know them. Haggard chose to take the position of leader of a religious community … and he abused them and lied to them. Leaders are accountable to G-d and those whom they lead. It’s not like he just ran a red light or forgot to pay a parking ticket … he abused people and yet does not want to take responsibility for his actions. HIS DOINGS ARE AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT IT IS LIKE TO NOT BE A TRUE CHRISTIAN.

To Emily K. and Alan S.,

Thank you for your response. I have no desire to be confrontational, but I do wish to bring a perspective to the table which has not been rendered. I do understand that the word says that leaders will be judged more harshly for leading others astray; however, let’s not take the word out of context. God said HE would do the judging. It’s more than exposure of a sin when we indulge in the media’s constant attack of a man who claims he is doing his best to get back in line with the word of God. It is not our place to judge a person, period, even after they have been exposed! It is no one’s just place to say if a man has gone to God and laid their burden down because no one knows (except that man and God). I can not defend his actions, but I can most certainly say that I sympathize for him and the position he put himself in because the road of no peace is a long one. I also sympathize with those who were misled by his hypocrisy because confusion is the where the devil reigns.

Renee,

I have always perceived that most Christians are always reaching to perfect themselves and do the “right” thing. I think most people try their best to be “good” and get past their wily ways. We are also a species that learns through believing words and copying examples of other’s’ behaviors and actions.

In the Bible, “God”, who would seemingly be the utmost example for Christians to follow, judges and destroys with a “do as I say not as I do” connotation i.e. let me do the judging and destroying. Supposedly destroying Sodom and Gomorra for not being nice to strangers, is one of but many examples of destructive acts committed by “God”, Leviticus probably being the cremedelacreme of such anxiety inducing actions.

Bush, a born again Christian, did the same thing with Iraq. Wasn’t he simply following the Christian model of what “God” did with S&G? And what man is not going to copy his “father”, hopefully his greatest teacher? How on earth can we blame Bush for being an example of the very “perfect” creator he desires to emulate, through “perfecting” himself? Isn’t the very role model in which Christians try to emulate, a loving destroying judging icon? It seems with this model, Bush did exactly what he was taught, and should be praised by every Christian. Ted Haggard is no exception.

With this in mind, I do not see how Christians can do anything else but love like Jesus and judge like “God”, as that is the “perfection” which is emulated. Is this not where the “God-like” “Christian soldier” doing things in “the name of God” mentality comes from? In another case, the Phelps would be doing their job “perfectly” as instructed.

So if I am not mistaken, for “God” to set bad examples of judgment and death, Christians will only seek to emulate. It is what Christians are taught. Monkey see monkey do. Judging is not only perfect, it is expected. So with this in mind, Christians should definitely judge as part of their emulation of progressive “perfection”.

So I say to you, if you are a Christian, you will judge and love, both an emulation of your role model “masters”. I think this is where Christians get their “righteousness” to judge quite openly without restraint. They are simply following the “rules”. If anyone has a smidgen of common sense, few people follow the dictum of “do what I say not as I do”. To many, that is a fools follie of sheer confusion.

With this dichotomy between Jesus and God, could this be the very root of hypocrisy the Christian religion fails to understand within itself? Could it be in fact, that Jesus has a few things to teach “God”?

I would be interested in thoughts on this.

Devlin – I think you’ve posed a legitimate question, however “tongue-in-cheek” you may or may not have intended.

The only answer (as a Bible-believing Christian) that I can offer is the “understanding” that I (and I’d hazard to say a large percentage of the “body of Christ”) have come to with regard to the OT and the NT.

Without delving too deeply into the theology of being “under the law” vs. “under grace”, and the Biblical explanation that “The Law and the Prophets” (basically the OT) served as an example of our (humanity’s) need for grace and a savior, because we can NEVER live up to the standards of a perfect God.

So all the examples of “destruction and death” in the OT are not EXAMPLES to be followed, but rather warnings for each individual that a similar fate awaits us all for “falling short”. It’s not an opportunity for us to judge, condemn, stone and put to death OTHERS, but for us to look inward and realize that, by the offenses we’ve all committed against God and man, we’re really not worthy of anything BUT judgement, condemnation, stoning and being put to death.

Then comes Jesus, often prophesied, and promised to be coming in many shadows and types in the OT (let’s say in the “brighter side” parts of the OT). He shows us that the law was never meant to be used to condemn each other, but to set our own standards for how to treat each other (“To Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself is the fulfilling of the Law”). He also comes to not only set an example of how we really SHOULD fulfill the law (not out of fear of punishment, but out of a desire to please God, and help others, e.g. “The Good Samaritan”), AND to realize the futility of trying to do things our own way, rather than submissively running into the arms of our loving Father God (e.g. “Prodigal Son”, repeated sayings of “the kingdom of God is like this”, etc.).

So, if there’s an example to follow DIRECTLY, then we as Christians can seek to emulate the MAN Jesus, who walked the Earth as just that, a MAN. To speak to your question/comment/conclusion about emulating God (especially in terms of judgment and destruction) it’s pretty clear – WE ARE NOT GOD. So, while Jesus did HUMANITY in the most perfect way (which we SHOULD try to follow), it’s not our place (let’s say “above our pay grade”) to try to play GOD.

And I don’t see that as a “Do as I say, not as I do” edict, so much as a “know your place, and realize that YOU’RE barely making it, so who are you to condemn somebody that but by the “grace of God” you could so easily BE them”.

So, when it comes to judgment – yes, we can and should be able to judge what is right and wrong (in terms of actions, beliefs/teachings that run contradictory to the truth, etc.), but we are NEVER to judge (and by judge I believe both judge worthy of condemnation, OR judge worthy of praise) other people – who knows, the person you condemn today, may be tomorrow’s hero… and we’ve certainly seen how today’s hero, put upon a pedestal, can so easily become tomorrow’s heel.

Just my two cents, make change if you’d like.

Greg: Well said!