Real Love Ministry’s Edmund Smith in Malaysian Women’s Weekly
Edmund Smith of Real Love Ministry (RLM) Malaysia believes his homosexuality was caused by his mother, as he shared in the February edition of the Malaysian Women’s Weekly.
I am the fourth boy in my family. When Mum was pregnant with me, they had hoped that I would be a girl. Perhaps that’s why, until I was five, my mother brought me up like a girl. I played with dolls and was dressed in dresses.
When asked whether he would return to what he deemed as the “homosexual lifestyle,” he added:
My faith, and the fact that I’m married with children, helps me to stay straight. Similarly, it is easier for an ex-smoker to start smoking again if his immediate circle of friends consists of smokers. I don’t frequent joints where gays hang out, so I’m out of that lifestyle.
In a recently launched video, he re-iterated his past dislike of being a boy. The video also featured Mr. Smith’s youngest sister, Helga Smith, in which she expressed the shame of people calling her “the gay’s sister”. Smith’s account takes for granted the theory of homosexuality being caused by cross-dressing. Alan Chambers, president of Exodus International, describes the same journey.
Edmund Smith lost much of his credibility as a pastor and ex-gay minister in the aftermath of the two-hour seminar ”Christian Perspectives on Homosexuality and Pastoral Care” on May 10th last year, when he delivered a meaningless and unprepared speech that was merely a testimonial of personal convictions. Smith went straight into ex-gay rhetoric without regard for the biblical and societal nature of the topic, rendering “gender confusion” as a cause of homosexuality, and “consuming Christ Jesus” as a cure.
He went on to describe homosexuals as “pro-gays” whose goal in life is sexuality, not Jesus, all the while failing to answer important questions from the audience, some in regards to the spirit of Christ’s law. His attempt to promote his latest DVD at the end of his speech drew comical laughter from the audience.
Smith’s first VMeet group gathering in January 2008 centered on labeling the LGBT community with improper definitions. Curiously, in the second VMeet gathering, he describes sexual orientation as “not a choice,” but sexual “lifestyle” as natural, forced or redeemed. Subsequently in the third VMeet, this month, he describes sexual orientation as changeable and modifiable. He lists these as the causes of homosexuality:
Trigger Issues (Primary causes)…
- The Self Issue (Rejection of one’s own gender & looks)
- The Vacuum Issue (A severe need to be loved & to love people of the same gender)
- The Barrier Issue (An inability to look at people of the opposite gender as romantic/sexual partners)
Contributors (Secondary causes)…
- Premature Sexual Orientation
- Addiction (to sex)
- Living in a pro-gay environment
- Coming from a non-religious background
- Lack of healthy heterosexual role models
- Being close to pro-gay individuals
- Belonging to one-gender school
It remains to be seen just how far RLM could go with their amateurish version of the ex-gay movement and continual outdated misrepresentations of homosexuals in Malaysia. RLM appeals to a country that is willing to listen to prejudice and seek simple solutions, but RLM is now beginning to struggle for attention and is losing authority in its sincere, but sadly dogmatic views on what true love is.
Well done again, Yuki. It’s good to know that even in lands foreign to the US, these “loving” theories are becoming less popular. It’s a worldwide positive change, not just a local one.
What part of the video can we see him try to promote his DVD?
Emily, the link for the ‘Christian Perspectives On Homosexuality’ would bring you to the video of the seminar. He still however, has support from his cult following made out from Christian youths to family and friends of homosexuals. Anyway the seminary video is very long but try to catch the fourth speaker Reverend Yap Kim Hao who delivered an excellent affirming speech for homosexuals here if you can. ; )
Sorry, Emily. Forgot to mention that Edmund is the third speaker in the ‘Christian Perspectives On Homosexuality’ seminar. It was just right after his speech that he suddenly whipped the DVD out (chuckle). Really caught everyone by suprise.
Sad to see another example of the children and wives of ex-gays put forth as proof of change. The background song and images convey the message that Mr. Smith has embraced genuine manhood. All of this plays well to the intended audience, I’m sure, but for ex-ex-gays with children (and ex-wives) it seems pretty shallow.
Yeah, children prove straightness. I’ve got four of ‘em and I’m as gay as ever.
For awhile I was getting help for sex addiction (my pastor thought that I wasn’t *really* gay, just addicted to sex). The one thing I noticed while there was that there were plenty of people who talked about cross dressing, but they were all very straight.
The ex-gay movement is propagating its “theories” of the etiology of homosexuality to countries all over the world.
Of course, it’s all the parents’ fault (particularly mothers).
He’s very effeminate and seems on the border of having GID. Did his parents perceived this when he was at a very young age? If so, then he’s got causation completely inverted. It’s the gayness that usually make antigay parents distant, not vice versa.
Yuki, it’s excellent you’re exposing what I believe is far-right western (read: American) political tool, which is mushrooming worldwide as part of the Christian religion. It’s almost as if you need to be straight to have Salvation. As if Jesus’ death and resurrection is not enough.
Silliness!
Unfortunately in most developing countries as those in Asia, there are many Christian groups and religious associations who buy into these types of ‘silliness’. Remember Reverend Wong Kim Kong?
Q. Malaysia has a far more conservative culture being a Muslim nation. Singapore is trying to extend more social acceptance of homosexuals, by allowing them participation in work places even if they are openly gay. The Christian community in Singapore tried to vocally oppose the government policy of accepting open gays in government and private sectors. Yet, some gays who claim to be Christians seek dialogue, probably insinuating they are hurt by the objections of the church.
Many of the homosexuals are influenced by their peers who perceive their condition as in-born and therefore acceptable. They are further perplexed by the challenges of liberal and orthodox world views. It is hardly surprising that many gays and lesbians get confused.
Certainly the cultural and religious backgrounds influence the community reaction towards the homosexual. We must recognise that the Church functions as a place of refuge and shelter for those in need. In a confused and hopeless situation, we must render our listening ears and loving hands, while maintaining our biblical stands and objection towards their behaviour and activities.
Asian countries are decades behind time in comparison to Western countries. If Paul’s Cameronism ever reaches here it would be worshipped as hard science.
Wait a second, i remember a dialogue between thockmorton and some other guy that came in here posting THE REASON why ppl are gay. Im pretty sure the conversation ended up somewhere along the lines that the cause is really a distanced father, the mother theory apparently didnt hold up.
Maybe all ex-gays should get together to once and for all find a congruent cause, so theyll sound more believable and they can recruit more ppl to God’s path. *rolls eyes*. Who knows.. maybe there really IS a pseudoscientic cause to explain homosexuality. Right now it all just sounds so far-fetched. But imho, the distance father theory has been the one most upheld(even my aunt that gives conferences about homosexuality told me that it IS due to a distant father in the crucial development age).
I definately see some use for this in the AFA anti-gay campaign.
If I understand correctly, Dr. Throckmorton does not believe that the “distant father” theory is true for all (or even most) gay people. For that reason he does not support Reparative Therapy (therapy to repair father-son relationships and restore heterosexuality).
Timothy,
Would it not be more accurate to have put it as:
“Dr Throckmorton does not agree with the basis for “Reparative Therapy” as promoted by Nicolosi. He does not believe a “too distant father/too close mother” is the cause of most homosexuality”.
He disagees with Nicolosi on that. He does, however, thinks it does apply to some. Or “might”.
But IMHO it’s not helpful to bundle it all in “Warren now says…” because:
Forgetting about the term “reparative therapy” for moment, it would also be fair to say (in our observation) that he does think the majority of gay men and women had some negative episode in their past that has caused them to think they are gay; if not caused them to be sexually attracted to the same sex in the first place. Otherwise they would be “straight”, even if they spent most of their lives trawling low bars or in parks of a night.
It’s hard not to pass by his many “sworn testimony” in years past without also noting there’s never been a public sense of regret, let alone severe embarrassment (we all remember this one don’t we, although we did get a “I was wrong” in relation to that appearance on one occassion here at XGW. As I understand… the professionals he was so abusive toward, on that occassion, still await a similar mea culpa from him.)
Of more recent concern than Warren’s previous efforts to present sexual orientation as changeable — he, and the rest, lost that debate: through shear wrongfull ignorance — are his present efforts to “offer” forcing oneself to have sex with the opposite sex or, failing that, living in complete celibacy as “achiveable”.
It’s more invidious, because (of course) it’s exactly what gay men and women have always done throughout the ages. And been damaged by, and damaged others as a result. This “new approach” is 2500 years old.
You will, and you may try if you wish, be hard pressed to get any confession from Warren — as a psychologist, not as a religious conservative — about what that sort of general regime would do to the overall mental, physical and social health of gay men and lesbians or… the heterosexual people they select as “partners”.
(eg: personally we are both very glad we didn’t put a decent person like “Grace” through all the stresses of us coming to terms with ourselves. Let alone the betrayal, we’re more concerned about possibly turning a hopeful, trusting person like “Grace” into bitterness or self-doubt as a result. People like her deserve much better than us pretending to be who we are not.)
Warren appears to have had a change of heart in 2005 or so about who and about what he wishes to associate himself with. Once he was on FRC/Bennett spead-dial. Once he advised PFOX. Now, not. You’d need to ask him why, but I also do feel sure he doesn’t need your help to rescue his image
It is good that Warren Throckmorton is now much more careful in public than he was a few years ago but, as they say, “A swallow does not a Summer make.”
Given the history, I’ll need to see a flock. Or some blood in the water.
Release02 ? “People can’t change, they can pretend to; and learn to be grateful. Or else.”
—————————————–
BTW Yuki: we were about to say “expect an email about mid-May if we are coming through KL in late July” but… no… what on earth are you doing in Darwin???… Crikey!(joke)… you might already know/or hate our cousin Carol. We might still see you in July!
grantdale,
I certainly don’t speak for Warren. But I think he favors Bem’s “exotic makes erotic” ideas over the negative trauma theories in many if not most cases.
But I may have that wrong.
I do know, however, that he really doesn’t like to be classified as a reparative therapist.
I am currently back in Malaysia (KL) to attend my sister’s wedding, then I will head off to Thailand for my SRS around mid June. I should be back mid July to Malaysia before flying off back to Australia mid-August. Hope to catch both of you somewhere between these times.
Meanwhile, edify me. Who actually is your cousin Carol? I might know or hate her? : X
S’cool Timothy.
Yes to 3. I think I said that. I know Warren has.
Ask him what EBE elements he’s after, though
(Ask him if EBE has any empirical evidence. The answer’s No, but ask anyway. EBE also contains a negative factor at its core… and its also very easy to convert it into the exact same foundation as Reparative Therapy. Note how frequently you will be hearing about a supposed disconnection with “the masculine” rather than “the father”. The missing father/cold mother claims are obviously all to absurd for most, and have been since it was ever looked at, so it’s been steadily converted into a shapeless missing “masculinity” or “femininity”. Impossible to disprove, and that’s just they way they like it.)
Actually, don’t bother asking. It’s all just thrown in to derail another debate. It really boils down to finding a justification for disposing some people not to express their sexuality in the way they otherwise would. I think I’ve already summed up the WT attitudes on that.
Of course we and you do the same thing (we just don’t advertise). You know — things like trawling around bars looking for lonely, disconnected straight men, befriending them… but all the while ultimately undermining their sense of self by disapproving their clothes, taste in music etc etc etc. We tell them there is no hope for them, unless… well, you know the drill.
And when you’re finished, you know how much they worship you. Worked in Guyana.
(btw we collected and converted 14 this weekend. Not our best effort, I admit.)
We’re being thoroughly mischevious in much of the above of course, but the issue of what happens to the vast majority of people if society is/was to impose an expectation of heterosexuality on everybody is already well established. It’s deadly. Some wish to operate as if that fact did not exist.
I guess the difference is that we hope for the Optimum, those hope for some Ideal.
I think human nature is on our side. I know that counts for little, to some.
And I’d hate to raise a solitary victory flag on top of a hill of bones.
Got to scoot — cheers mate!
Don’t be worried Yuki — we do have a cousin Carol in Darwin (but I doubt you know her. That would be too much of a surprise!). We’ve been meaning to come up to Darwin for the past few years, but work schedules etc have conspired against us. Some day soon…
Hope the wedding goes well, and our best wishes for everything during the trip to Thailand. Promise us you will take it easy and no staying up late at S.Soi 2 — even if the music is really good and even if everyone looks too drop-dead gorgeous in DJ Station
No doubt we’ll all hear from you before you leave but enjoy the return to KL in any case, G&D
(and apologies to everyone who didn’t get the “KL”. Short version of Kuala Lumpur, which is of course in Malaysia. Thanks Yuki — we forgot not everyone’s from this part of the World!)
In the words of one of my best gay friends Kurt, “that guy is as gay as skittles!”
I reiterate what Rick says in the comment above. I respect the committment the guy has made to his wife and children, and I believe he should honor that committment….furthermore, I don’t doubt his love for his wife or children. It saddens me that he’s bought into the lies of the ex-gay movement and continues to choose to believe that behavior in and of itself causes one to be gay or straight, and that gay people don’t know how to love. It’s disheartening as well that being gay is seen as such a horrific thing to these sorts of Christians. I have a dream that one day gay men and women will be able to live in a world where being gay is not equated with being evil.
I have read many of Edmund’s testimonies, and I do feel a sense of empathy for him. His whole believe system seems to be founded by his environment and society. He believes he wants to be a girl by his mother. He believes he wants to be a boy by his first boyfriend. He believes he wants to be a minister by Salvation Army Church. He believes he wants to be an ‘ex-gay’ by Choices Ministry, Singapore. He believes he wants to be a husband by his wife Amuamanda. In all his parading of his children we see his longing for security to proof he is straight. In all his singing for his ‘inner man’ to arise, we see a little girl lost. In all his seeking attention from his audiences we see his seeking of approval from his audiences for leaving the ‘lifestyle’. When all else fails, he seeks comfort from God. Unfortunately, he is told by people that God do not accept him unless he does not act upon his real self. All in all, we can see a person still seeking until today, a place in this world that he can be accepted by church, family and friends. But my heart cries for him, because he had never been to himself. Even though both of us are now in opposites sites of the fence, I remain happy for him that he is now safe and secure in his fantasy world, but I am deeply saddened that he goes offensive against homosexuals and transgenders to crucify again and again the ‘evil’ that never was within himself.
After reading many comments and suggestions on this page, I thought I will point out some misconception regarding the grace of God and the evil that you are all talking about.
A question to Yuki, have you attended Vmeet conducted by Edmund Smith? Because you seem to ‘know’ what is being taught in the Vmeet.
I think it’s best not to judge another person and from what I see, and yes…I do google you and Edmund Smith and you seem to be on EVERY single website where the name Edmund SMith is mentioned. I mean EVERY means EVERY as this is not an exagerration…
What do you mean by,
”He still however, has support from his cult following made out from Christian youths to family and friends of homosexuals.“
It’s really really sad to hear such comments from a so called Believer of Jesus..
I have never once read in the Bible where Jesus called anyone CUlt???? Even the pharisees which he has rebuked, and on that cross, HE cried out, FOrgive them Father, for they know not what they are doing…
I think you are just letting yourself being blinded in this so called Anti Exgay movement..And why not, focus on whats more important?
Focus on Jesus and just like Peter, as he fixed his eyes on Jesus, he is walking on the water and once he divert his attention to the wind and the storm around him, he begin to sink..
I pray that it will not happen to you..
To all, I personally feel that Edmund Smith is speaking from his heart and through experience. Thats what he has experienced and many gays still have not. Why bother commenting on each of his experiences. You have your own experience and he has his. His experience could help others even if you as a gay cant be helped by understanding and following his footstep but still give others a chance. Personally I feel that as a gay person, you should be proud and happy that your gay brother has chosen to change and he is happy now. I am sure you want to be happy too. This what makes him happy so be it. Go comment on your own experiences and stop commenting others. i think you should look at the man in the mirrror and do a research on yourself rather than edmund smith. Thanks.. Have a good day all…
Beloved, did you read the post? He displayed all of the lesson structure on his blogsite for all to see. It is available via the links. And I have met and talked to people who have attended VMeet and are uncomfortable with it. I believe you would know about it too.
Are you sure?
“Every” is obviously an exaggeration by you. I also did not see you commenting about SayoniSpeaks on their comments, or those at Trevvy, or Shopaholic? And even if it is as what you claimed, do I not reserve the right to counter misinformation?
Allow me to offer some lessons in English?
A cult following is a group of fans devoted to a specific area of pop culture. Cult followings most often develop around television shows, films, and books. Some comic books, video games, musicians and writers also gain cult followings. Non-media items may also have what could be considered cult followings, for example the soft drink Tab
Cult followings are often dedicated enough that many people of similar interest are familiar with one another due to convention gatherings, concerts, message boards, Internet chat rooms, word of mouth, or shops featuring related items.
You call bridge building and affirmation, and stating scientific and social evidences to the damages done by ex-gay ministries to gays and their friends/family, an anti-exgay movement? Tell me, how you create this denominator?
It was when I was under personal tutorship of Edmund that I sank. I thank Our Saviour that once I remove myself from being indoctrinated by ex-gay ministries, it was then I started to rise.
I agree with James. Edmund Smith is speaking from his heart about his experiences and it takes guts to put your life on “display”. I have no doubt he sincerely wants others to learn from his experiences. For those who judge him so harshly and criticise him, what’s your REAL agenda? Do you have a “how you found happiness as a gay”experience to share? As James says, “go comment on your own experience” and stop tearing someone elses’ down if you have nothing constructive to offer.
I don’t have a problem with his experience or his happiness…it’s lovely. for real. In fact, for the sake of his wife and children I hope and pray he continues in this same vein of happiness forever.
It’s the lying about gay folks that bothers me….saying that they don’t know what love is and speaking in terms as to intone that gay folks are evil.
Yep. Sure do.
It’s called living my life with integrity in accordance with the way I was made by my Creator. It’s a happy thing.
Beloved said:
Just for the record, it does appear you are in error on this. A Google search of the relevant terms results in perhaps 3 sites where Yuki has commented about Edmund Smith, one of which is XGW and another Yuki’s own site. And though I only quickly scanned over them, her comments didn’t seem all that harsh. In fact, for the most part, they were quite docile.
I did, however, find this same accusation disguised as a prayer on Edmond Smith’s own site:
According to the evidence, you are not only exaggerating, but lying – and so is Mr. Smith.
Esther,
I absolutely do have an experience of finding happiness as a gay man.
Only when I stopped letting everyone, society, friends, everyone tell me who I am, what I should do. When I finally listened to my heart, it told me where to go.
When I asked God “why” he had no answer. I was confused at first, and then realized that the question wasn’t fair, or important. It just is what it is.
God gave me a wonderful gift. He gave me the capacity to love, something I think is becoming more and more rare in this world. Who I love is not all that important in the greater scheme of things, the fact that God gave me that ability, that’s what’s important.
It would be spitting in God’s face for me to turn around and tell God, “I don’t want this gift”. It would be rude and ungrateful for me to tell him that this gift has too many difficulties, that this gift isn’t what I expected, what I wanted.
When I accepted the gift, when I really accepted that it had weight, and depth, and meaning in my life, that is when things got better. I stopped drinking, i stopped smoking, I stopped doing bad things.
And not long after that, I met a wonderful man, and we’ve been together almost 2 years. I did not know anyone could love me so much. I didn’t know I could love anyone this much. And should it all end tomorrow, I will be grateful for the memories, the experience, the love.
And I will not apologize to anyone for this. We both have jobs, we are both kind, decent, tax-paying, adult men who love and respect each other, and for that, I will not apologize, nor will I be told by anyone that it isn’t real.
The fact that my life is anything that someone else thinks they have the right to critique is utter madness. Get the log out of your own eye first.
Yeah,. see every gay or straight person has their own experiences. It is better for you to share about your experiences rather than talking and commenting on others. Let us all stop commenting on others or quoting about someone or whatever that will enable us to spoil the other persons name. That is not a good thing to do. If we realize there is something wrong with the other person, its best that we pray & i think what Edmund Smith did, praying for Yuki is a good thing and especially announcing to pray warriors.. Amazing. Prayers move mountains. Please all I am open for you to pray for me. Thanks in advance for praying for me.
With all due respect James, and I don’t think you are the James that normally comments here so please pick another name, XGW is not a prayer group. We most certainly do comment on the experiences of others, comparing them against science, historical statements, checking for consistency, truthfulness, accuracy. XGW is a watchdog site, which means by definition we hold people in the professional ex-gay world accountable for their actions. This came out of a dire need, as they were, and to a large extent still are, doing a bad job of being accountable themselves.
Now for those who have faith out there who read us, they certainly can pray for these same groups and individuals if they like, but that’s generally a private issue. The way to maintain a good name is to be truthful and consistently so, and candid when you have made a mistake, not to lie about the person calling you out (Yuki).
Your participation is welcome, as long as you understand what we do here and can abide by that.
I felt really sad for Edmund at the talk. The replies were quite harsh. As I walked out of the talk, I saw gays in their teens holding hands at the Gay district which the talk was held at. I was shocked – so early. Times have changed and the church will soon no longer dictate.
I had the opportunity to publicality thank the Rev Yap Kim Hao the next Sunday, and you know this man gave so much and have suffered so much. Alas, at his age nearing 80, he has much more energy and drive than me.
Gentle Lamb
Esther:
As a Christian, we cannot sit idley by and let people take over the faith and rewrite it so that it fits their agenda. When people take upon themselves the title “Christian” and yet do not exemplify the one they are suppose to be following, the very one who gave our religion its name, then we are obligated to take note and take action by warning others.
It is really sad that somehow Christ’s message became distorted and went from,
“Amen, amen I say to you, unless one is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, they cannot enter into the kingdom of God” to “Amen, amen I say to you, unless one is born again of water and the Holy Spirit and is a practicing heterosexual, they cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
Or “Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, and are a practicing heterosexual, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Or ‘For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the Scribes and Pharisees, and are a practicing heterosexual, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Or “I say to you: unless you shall do penance, and are a practicing heterosexual, you shall all likewise perish [like the Galileans].”
Or “Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but they who do the will of my Father who is in heaven, and are a practicing heterosexual, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Sad to say, that is the message being sent which is why I am grateful for this blog because it is one means of taking back our faith even though for many it was and is a faith that has wounded us and is some cases still causes wounds.
Is it not weird that we seem to have members of the Real Love Ministry commenting here in defense of Edmund Smith, but not his credibility as a pastor or his claims, and the man himself failed to dialogue with us? And as most would understand from ex-gay ministries, Edmund Smith himself has nothing to offer but myths about homosexuality that he squeeze into unsuspecting heads based on his “experience”, and not science and truth. And his “followers” are successfully shut out from the real world, never questioning what Mr. Smith says, never thinking whether it is right or wrong. All while Mr. Smith must be praying his “followers” never think out of the RLM box, to never discover the facts, and to base everything about the Bible and homosexuality on only what he says. This is brainwashing.
GentleLamb, I absolutely agree with you. I met Rev Yap when the Metropolitan Community Church came over to Malaysia. He is really such a dear man. The fact that he, a straight man and once the leader of the Methodist Church in Asia, is ultimately spending the last years of his life with so much energy as to dispel the myths and intolerance about LGBTS that are perpetuated by churches in South East Asia earns my forever hat-tip to the man. Rev Yap leads with such passion and example most of us would like to follow. Our Saviour bless him.
Hi all. Thanks to Timothy and especially Jason for sharing their experiences. It helps us to see things from another perspective. I’m not out to defend Edmund (and I’m not his brainwashed “follower” or a RLM member as Yuki seems to presume) and I’m also not out to offend anyone (sorry if I did). I just thought why not just share our experiences and dialogue rather than tear someone else’s reputation and ministry? Since we all claim to be Christians, we need to do everything (even disagreeing) in love. For Jason, my heart goes out to you because I understand that God created us with the capacity to love and to be loved. It is painful when someone else tells us our experiences are invalid or wrong BUT (and I try to say this as gently as I can) I think phileo and agape love between people is beautiful regardless of which gender relationships but eros love is intended by God to be between a male and a female (as they were born to be physically). For those who have gender confusion, probably not all will agree with Edmund since we all have a story to tell (like Edmund). But if we call ourselves Christian, we need to seriously align our lives with the Word of God.
I quote Alan:
“As a Christian, we cannot sit idley by and let people take over the faith and rewrite it so that it fits their agenda. When people take upon themselves the title “Christian” and yet do not exemplify the one they are suppose to be following, the very one who gave our religion its name, then we are obligated to take note and take action by warning others.”
I absolutely agree with you on this but I can’t agree with you on the way you have quoted scripture. Following your logic, I can also say “Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, and are not a murderer, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” and by the same logic, get away with murder!
BUT the bible does say in 1 Co 6:9 “Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. ” This is just one of several verses in the bible that talks explicitly about homosexuality as a sin (eg. see also Rom 1 with specific ref to verse 27).
So, sorry, Alan, though I agree with you at first, I think you are the one who is “re-writing” not only our faith but the scripture itself.
I do agree with you Alan that our faith sometimes causes wounds. Might not these wounds be like the wounds suffered by Christ for our sakes? Truth sometimes hurts but we need to believe that the truth will set us free; carry our own cross and follow Christ. I believe Christ died for all sinners and He came to save, not to condemn. If we truly love Jesus, will we not let His love heal our broken hearts and stop looking for love in human relationships (whether herosexual or homosexual) to make us whole. God bless you all.
You made this statement several times in your last comment. There is no such claim here, this site serves people of all faiths and no faith at all. Christianity enters into the discussion more than most because there are very few ex-gay or even anti-gay efforts that are not related to that faith.
As to your interpretation of scripture, if you believe that intimate relationships between members of the same sex are prohibited as sinful, then I strongly suggest you not engage in them. However, others will have to come to their own conclusions – that is not the purpose of this thread. People must feel comfortable commenting here and for most that precludes proselytizing.
This site is a watchdog for ex-gay organizations in general. RLM fits that description so it is part of our responsibility to keep people informed of their actions, particularly those which could be deemed harmful or misleading. If you have any relevant thoughts concerning the material in the post, Edmund Smith or RLM, please feel free to comment further.
If you simply want to advertise RLM or Edmund Smith, I suggest you create your own blog to do so.
Esther:
Is translating a passage of scripture correctly considered “rewriting?” I thought translating a passage of scripture incorrectly was considering rewriting, as when Luther added the words to St. Paul : Justification ONLY by faith; or when the Watchtower added the article “and the Word was A god.” Or when the NIV Bible uses the word “homosexual” in the passages you quoted when the word “homosexual” did not exist in the Greek language during St. Paul’s time or for thousand years plus after his death.
I am not rewriting scripture or the true Chrisitian faith. I, and many like me, are merely pointing out where passages have been mistranslated. I am equally offended to find the translation of “κεχαριτωμένη” to mean “highly favored” when its true meaning is “filled to perfection with grace” in reference to the Blessed Virgin Mary as I am offended when the words “arsenokoital” and “malakos” are erroneously mistranslated to mean homosexuality.
As a defender of the faith, which all Christians are called to be, we must also defend our faith from being mistranslated and misused.
Esther, you are one of the leaders of Salvation Army Church in Melaka, Malaysia that supports Edmund’s “ministry”, parroting his audio-visual goods and training the next level of teenagers to serve inside the Real Love Ministry. Since you are not a “follower”, why are you affiliated with him? When he goes around telling every family and friends of people who know homosexuals that they are “gender confused” (a term I notice you too like to use) like him when almost all are not and it offends most people who are proud homosexual men, how do you hold him accountable for bearing such false witness?
I am not going to rewrite everything. No interpretation either. Word for word, Paul also wrote:
1 Timothy 2:11-15
Are you being absolutely quiet lately about anything? You are not supposed to teach any adult men, Shhh. And have you bore a child yet? If you had, I am happy for your salvation.
1 Corinthians 14: 34-35
So are you being silent in church? Perhaps I suggest you just submit, and sit back while you listen to the other captains there speaking? It is written for you to speak it is disgraceful!
I am sure Edmund Smith means well. But for a person like him to misrepresent gays as “gender confused” and “young cross-dressers” like himself when no one else is, is self-seeking. For a person to tell his followers to not listen to any medical professionals or websites that offer solid alternative views, labelling them “pro-gays = people who’s lives for sexuality not Christ” is judging and lying when there are Christians who are homosexual. For a person to propose rejection of scientific analysis when the current mental health consensus is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality, and a person like Edmund is a clear and present danger to gays and lesbians is dogmatism at its purest.
For a person to mess up people’s minds when he is not even qualified to do so is tempting depression, rejection and suicide of other people. For a person to mess up friends and families till every person drags their homosexual friends and children to see Him and other “ex-gays” for a “cure” is a blatant act of prejudice against other human beings, discrimination against science, and clearly rewriting the very concept which Christ calls for – LOVE.
This is quite interesting… Calling the cow, dog… and the tail, head. If you do not believe(which you come across as you dont) that Edmunds word are condemning, but more so , it’s God’s hand reaching to his children so as to express how “Christ died for all sinners and He came to save” them, then… I dont think a common ground is in reach. THeres a huge gap between being a cow or a dog… and unless you can prove those here that the cow, is in reality, a dog(like you already tried through quoting scriptures), getting ‘through’ to the gay christian minds…. nothing short of ‘miraculous’. But IMO, as its faith thats involved… everyone will pick what ‘right’ and ignore if its in reality, ‘wrong’.
As if it is ever possible to reach common ground, being human beings. Humans, by our very nature, absolutely love to disagree (look at the way the US political system works, they don’t even show a united stand within their own political parties!), and since religion and faith has always been interpreted according to one’s own whims and fancies (look at how followers of Islam strongly condemn suicide bombing, while Islamic militants believe it’s for the good of the religion, for example, and let’s not get into the bloody history of the church), why not just be a little productive and loving?
Save the baby seals! Sign the pledge here!
As for Edmund Smith and his cronies posting here, or wherever, let them post till their finger pads get callused and sore. Just ignore them. Insecure people (which they may or may not be) absolutely cannot abide being ignored.
Hugs to all!
Ooh… poor Esther kena hantam!!
Which word of God? Baptist? Catholic? Mormon? Methodist? Unitarian? Anglican? Episcopalian? The Snake Handler Church? the list goes on and on. These sects formed because Christians can’t seem to agree on what exactly the word of God is, or what it means. Individual Churches within each sect don’t necessarily agree, either.
If you’ve got a bible that has the word “homosexual” in it, you’ve got propaganda, not the word of God. “Homosexual” is a fairly new word, it’s only been around a hundred, two-hundred years. Had it not been created, what word would be in your bible right now instead? Sorry, no sale.
Edmund Smith and his cronies cannot be ignored when they continue to slam down their version of “truthful” dogmatic myths about homosexuality and transgenderism, and pass it as fact. It is indeed a sad that parents and friends of LGBTs are becoming instant targets; it would eventually break up friendships and family relations, like what I am facing now. Close members of RLM seem to be totaly immersed in fantasy to support their own intolerance.
This article I wrote was written with a soft spot of empathy for Edmund. But when I see that people from RLM Penang such as Elina Goh @ Beloved, and from Salvation Army such as Esther Ong jumping into his defense of nothing it is really disturbing. It is as if nobody is allowed to even talk about Edmund, and that his words are consumately above all people.
Seriously, think about it. This article is about Edmund Smith sharing. He was permitted to share, no one is stopping him. I am even giving him free worldwide publicity, and also energize our thoughts for the matter of discussion. It has nothing to do with his followers. But they all just came up as defend him. Geddit? They are not defending God, they are not defending his right to misinformation. They are defending a human being with wacky ideas.
I will admit this is post had become personal for me, especially when I know this man and his older brother. And I still do love him as a friend. But a chance meet yesterday with another RLM member during a friend’s farewell kind of changed all that. She was condenscending, and called me disrespectfully a “uncle”. She could not stand me the whole night even though I did nothing and kept quiet. With love I tried to speak gently to her, she reacted as if I am banned from her life. Why would such hatred be sowed when this article had nothing to with her? By the fruits that comes out from her, it represents the RLM tree.
Apologies, but I am emotional about this. It do saddens my heart when his credibility falls, but to blame me as if I have something to do with his credibility when he behaves like Richard Cohen is too much to bear. And when he successfully convinces his small band of followers to shut off their minds from what we have to say it is really in the end the hallmark of ex-gay ministries especially when they are still young adults but somehow have someone to fulfill their intolerance and do not wish to question and think anymore. Fullstop for them.
And where is the love?
I believe that there is nothing wrong with conversations with ex-gay groups, and in the conversation, their arguments are pretty standard and we learn to strengten our positions.
We do need help in Asia to have alternative views to the overwhelming voice of the religiously motivated and supported ex-gay groups here.
Yes, there is a need now. Perhaps there are ways we can work together on the issue. Tried to contact you on your yahoo e-mail at your website but did not receive a response. Please contact yuki.choe@exgaywatch.com and we shall discuss further on this. Thanks. Take care.
We in RLM are immune with such attacks from the progay community. The progay community consists of people (gay, straight & etc) who believe that gays cannot / should not change.
RLM has no time to argue or debate with the progay community. We have been called by Jesus to help those who come to us for help. We don’t have the time to waste on arguing with these people. Time is too precious for us.
RLM does not go around telling or forcing gay people to become exgay. Gay people come to us – for they want something more in life. We believe that every gay should be given a freedom of choice – whether be progay or exgay. RLM believes in such a freedom. But sadly not many think like us. It is human rights when a gay wanting to be an exgay BUT sadly the progay community are blinded to this truth. They have been talking about gay rights and human rights from generation unto generations. Yet they fail to see – that it is total human rights for a gay who wanting to choose the exgay path.
RLM has no desire to be enemies with the progay community at large. In fact many progay individual (who knows RLM for who we really are) – are supporters of our ministry. They choose to be progay but they respect any gay individual who wants to adopt the exgay lifestyle.
Yeh, really kena hantam kao kao but been an eye opener for me. I suppose one can interpret the bible according to one’s persuasion and we can argue till the cows come home.
Would like to know how you would interpret the greek “arsenokoitēs” in 1 Cor 6:9. Most translations have “homosexuals” but would like to know an alternative translation and interpretation (seriously, I’m not asking not for argument sake).
I think most Christians grow up with dogmatic thinking. Can there be more than one “truth”? But today, we are faced with the same question that Pilate asked Jesus in John 18:38: “What is truth?” I am of a traditional evangelical persuasion so naturally I will read the bible with my tinted lens but I believe it’s okay to sometimes take those lens away to look at scriptures differently, to see things from another perspective, which is what I hope to do here. We may not agree in the end but at least we have the courage to seek the truth even in the open sea of differing views.
Of course you do not. You have families and friends of homosexuals in Malaysian churches to haul them up for RLM.
Yes, everyone has a choice, and based on the kind of information perpetuated, is it an informed choice? Is the information from real sources? Let us analyse what Edmund thinks and what he shares to convince people
to supress who they wish to loveand “change”Homosexuality = sexual urges
Gay Lifestyle = acting upon the urges
Pro-Gay = Puts sex above God
and
Ex-Gay = Ex-Smoker = Do not touch that stick!
The irony is I went to my Pastor because of a smoking problem and ended up being given Edmund’s number. I am not the first to be asked to go to Edmund by friends and families in churches, and I am not the last. We are told we do not need to struggle if we “change”.
So what is the help given? I was told “being” a transgender is a sin. And lately everyone would realise Edmund thinks I am a “male”. So this much proves the credibility of Edmund, perpetuating personal constructs instead of scientific facts and mental health opinions.
I’d like to point out some incongruencies in the above article especially from the paragraph onwards that mention’s Pastor Edmund’s vmeets.
I have attended these vmeets myself. I am really disappointed that Yuki Choe has not actually explained in proper terms what Pastor Edmund is talking about.
Of course sexual orientation is not a choice as what I’ve learned from him and the Bible. Sexual lifestyle on the other hand is a choice.
Sexual Orientation is nurtured and therefore is not a choice. However, as adults we can choose to change our sexual lifestyles and this obviously means a change in sexual orientation.
The secondary causes listed there are not necessarily wrong of themselves. They could lead to the homosexual lifestyle and are not absolute causes.
What is difficult to understand in that? To comment on Pastor Edmund’s ministry entails having a discussion with him first to find out exactly what he means when he writes articles on his Vmeets because, if you notice, they’re not comprehensive but in point form.
I’m sure you’re not afraid to discuss issues with him. Regarding his speech on May 10th last year, I can’t really comment because I did not hear it myself. However, if he has made mistakes in his speech that did not seem to answer the audience’s queries, I’m sure he has moved on from there and improved. He is after all human.
Laughing at someone else for doing a wonderful job especially when it comes from Pastor Edmund himself who was gay at one time just goes to show that some people in this world do not have the guts to make a stand and be at odds with the majority. Pastor Edmund took that stand to show he loves and cares because he went through it himself. He is not making it up.
Take it from me. I know what I’m talking about. I’m an ex-gay myself. Ex-gays should have as much rights as pro-gays themselves and should not be condemned just like we do not condemn pro-gays.
Dear Helga of Real Love,
I actually agree with your post. I mean, if someone wants to convert to heterosexuality, then they should explore that avenue. And in the spirit of freedom of choice, I’m sure Real Love provides the same opportunities for heterosexuals to convert to homosexuals, am I right? Examplary organisation, dare I say!!
However, your post tends to lose a lot of credibility when it comes to:
Er… so what choo doin’ postin’ here, love?
It must be because you wanted to save the seal pups, right? Well, there’s a duck, sign the petition here.
Warmest agape to you and yours!
Esther,
I’m not sure, I read this ages ago. But if i’m not mistaken, it’s a compound noun that Paul made up – arsen (=male) and koites (sofa). From my limited understanding, there is no authority on what it means, since Paul made up the words himself and was not in use by anyone else (or so i understand).
Yes, most Christians grow up with dogmatic thinking. And i don’t think it would be unfair to say this dogmatic thinking comes from the church, not the Bible. I doubt if it would be unfair to say that 75% of Christians have not even bothered to read the Bible cover to cover. So much for treasuring the gifts of God…
As for the whole “homesexual = wrong”, “homosexual = right”, puh-lease, there is So Much More to Christianity than that. The ‘mission’ to save them is laughable, if it were not destroying so many lives, including those who were ‘converted’, their spouses and their children.
All the great Christians over the centuries were not converting homosexuals, not Martin Luther, not Mother Theresa, not one of them. There are greater wrongs, wrongs against God himself and his creation, than homosexuality. It just goes to show the warped priorities of some, in my own very-not-humble-sounding opinion. For these churches and missions, i wonder who really is their God, Jesus or homosexuality?
But i guess we’re all answerable in the end, so we’ll just see what we’ll see.
The christian response to this might be along the lines of,
‘Well, if it wasn’t propogated as something right, there would be no problem. Sins like murder, robbing, lieing are legally wrong. Propogation of promiscous sex, albeit wrong, is done out of everyones eyes. Movies that show such sin as something normal give ppl the CHOICE to see or not to see. But, when it comes to homosexuality(specifically, relationships), this will not be expressed in closed doors nor will we have much of a choice to see/interact with these lost/possesed/perverted/confused souls. And a society like this is God forsaken. So, in the spirit of freedom, truth, and God’s will, we will fight so the Land of the Free does not keep backtracking to a perverted one. ‘
If you look back at the links on his VMeet (quite descriptive as points) and compare that to what you just said, you would notice that his points to us is just as understandable as the point you made, emphasis above.
Therefore, to claim “incongruencies” for something you again redefine from his VMeets in far fetched. Perhaps you should question how inaccurate Edmund can be in detailing the “causes” of homosexuality, just as he is no able to differenciate the differences between “transgender”, “transsexual”.
In case I am accused of not explaining, I will put this as an example:
According to Edmund:
Edmund confuses what is “sexual identity” with “gender here”
According to the American Psychological Association:
That means, Edmund mistakenly calls a “transgender” by a definition that is used for transsexuals, albeit still wrong in using the word “biological gender”
“Transgender: One whose psychological gender is opposite to his/her biological gender”
One need not need to study much to realise that “gender” is a social construct and sexual identity is innate, as mentionted by the APA link above.
There are also growing evidences of the innateness of the transsexual conditions:
Some of us has “female brains” even though we are transsexual male to females:
Some of us has “female chromosome structures” even though we are transsexual male to females:
Conclusion? Edmund is no authority in the complex issue of transgenders, and everything he says about it is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Disappointingly, I have already pointed out to Edmund his mistakes on several occations verbally, through MSN, and through my blogsite. Sadly, he refuse to budge from his misinformed position.
Such is the fruits coming out from a bad tree that calls a transsexual like me “male” when science, with medical and mental health professionals calls me “female”.
Okay, let us get back to more…
You would notice that I quoted from authorative sources that are completely scientific peer-reviewed research and non-religion biased.
Can you do the same for your statement?
Quickie points, before I make this comment longer than it already is.
Renik Fair,
There is a link on the article, which if you would have bothered to read, that goes directly to the video of the Christian Perspectives of Homosexuality. I link it here again just in case. And as you had seen in the video, he repeats again the all fascinating dogma that there is something “wrong?” with homosexuality, and that something must have “nurtured” it. Nope, he had not changed much, especially until now he still considers homosexuality as an “addiction”, like smoking.
No one is laughing at his “wonderful job” of going around churches and youth groups and misrepresent homosexuals.
No one likes to be accused of being a “crossdresser”, or was “sexually abused”, or had “bad parents”; and then was told Edmund says so because he was like that.
No one is like Edmund. Just because he liked the “stick” and calls it a “lifestyle” does not mean everyone is like him.
As for Edmund being “the man” who stands to show “he loves and cares” and not making it up, perhaps he would do well to show that love and care by stop representing everyone in the world as they are like himself. If he really loves and cares, he would not go around churches and youths tellling people that heterosexuality is somewhat the goal in life.
And most importantly, Edmund, if he really “loves and cares”, should stop branding homosexuals as just oh poor poor “gender confused” souls.
That is the point, is it not? You do not condemn, you just join Edmund and his cronies to go around “reaching out” to a “marginalized” community that there is “hope” for a “change”, telling everyone about the “exgay lifestyle” and how destructive the “gay lifestyle” could be and how homosexuality is not compatible with God, and in the process, sell some audio-visualistic dogma and pass it off as “truth”.
Let us see what Edmund has to say here: