Open Forum: Anti-Gay Diatribe By Oklahoma Representative
In what is described as a small gathering that was apparently not meant for public ears, an Oklahoma State Representative rails on about the “homosexual agenda,” using any number of discredited, Paul Cameron inspired quotes. According to JMBzine.com, the speaker is Rep. Sally Kern, R-Oklahoma City, sponsor of HB 1569 mentioned in the clip.
Claiming that “gays are infiltrating city councils,” she boldly announces that various parts of the nation – Kensington MD, Pittsburgh PA, West Palm Beach FL, and more – are all under the “control” of gays. It takes no imagination to understand the war-like hyperbole she uses. But as if to make certain the point comes across, she continues with this:
I honestly think it’s the biggest threat our nation has, even more so than terrorism or Islam.
If you’ve ever had doubts as to what is said by some lawmakers about gays behind closed doors, this should help. While many have learned to clean up their act in public, bigotry is a powerful thing. The really sad part is that Rep. Kern must have realized that saying these things would be well received, at least by those constituent present.
In 2004, Rep. Kern was elected with 67.65% of the vote in District 84. Citizens of Oklahoma, for goodness sakes please do not re-elect this woman.
Update: Pams House Blend has a copy of an email Kern sent to a person named Richard who asked her to explain her recorded comments. She apparently agrees with the democratic process as long as the voters agree with her (a gay man is running for a statewide seat).
“Jason, I don’t consider your statement to have anything to do with “the gay side of the bridge.”
David, I’m alluding to the fact that I’ve noticed you **appear** to have more patience and understanding for the opposition than you do for people who are, essentially, on *your side*. That’s what I was getting at, and that’s my impression of this situation. Bridges are good, but you have to maintain both sides.
I also figured that since I’ve been posting here for close to a year, I’d get just a tensy bit more slack than that. And the gay community is too small to spend so much time infighting, we loose momentum very easily that way. We can’t control the other gay people around us, so we might as well accept them.
“And I would have, and have, responded the same way to someone 10 years ago – to anyone. I just think the statement had bigoted overtones, regardless of how you might have meant it. Perhaps you could just think before making similar statements in the future, instead of showing moral outrage at my comments over it.”
My outrage was over the fact that you didn’t seem to notice that you were layering in your own thoughts into what I said — rather than reacting to what I actually posted. It’s all about perspective. I’ve been just as guilty of letting my mood color what I read, rather than taking something at face value.
I do think. In fact, I’m often accused in daily life of OVERthinking most things. I edit posts several times before I post them. I avoid using words unnecessarily, and make an effort to be careful of everything I put out there.
I encourage you to have me banned from this site if you ever think my posts are offensive. I’m here to discuss the issues at hand, not defend my word choices for days on end. I’d rather be banned.
Of course Ms. Kern could “speak out against homosexuality” without being speaking hate. But she didn’t.
Once you claim that homosexuality is worse than terrorism, it’s pretty clear you’ve left intellectual debate and jumped head first into the hate pool.
And when you foolishly claim that “the lifestyle is bringing death to it’s people”, there’s a very high likelihood that your motivation is the same.
in quick response to TL, I would argue that ancient cultural acceptance of sexualities has nothing to do with cultural acceptance of diverse sexuality today. The romans, greeks et al also revered pederasty as a sacred institution, as much so as we consider marriage today. But today pederast acts will get you thrown in jail, and at the bottom of the prison food chain at that. One of the reasons the Greeks held (male) “homosexuality” (which I put in quotes because it consisted mostly of pederasty) in such high esteem is that men were higher beings than women, so it made sense to seek out an elite male to love than another woman. In addition, it was considered a rite of passage for a boy to take an older male lover. That is called “abuse” today. This “acceptance” of different sexual unions occurred because those of my own gender were so looked down upon. Not as much is known about female homosexuality back then.
But I still whole-heartedly agree with you that Rep. Kern is wrong in that civilizations actually thrived while accepting different sexualities. But that is a moot point anyway. Greek culture thrived on pederasty and slavery, things I do not condone. Likewise, our own culture thrives on destroying the Earth, another thing I do not condone. One civilization can’t be judged by a singular acceptance or persecution of one thing. It’s just another scare tactic used by evangelical fundamentalists. How can she not see how she is like the fundamentalist Islamic terrorists in her manner of speaking?
John: you are the second person to inform the rest of us that we are less than perfect sinners. I have three challenges for you:
1) Please show me in your book where you, John, have been exempted from Jesus’ commandments about other people’s sins. Hint: don’t look in the gospels. Jesus had a different opinion about it. look in Paul.
2) Read the posting i made on 3/9 at 4:49 pm. This was in response to Don, who also felt that he could drop his biblical pants for us, but who never bothered to respond to my basic question. Can you respond to it?
3) Consider these statements:
Christianity is a cancer on society that must be removed. Christianity is worse than islamic terrorism. Christians want to indoctrinate your 2 year olds with their particular brand of fairy tale. Chrisitianity caused the fall of the roman empire. Big fat Chrisitnas in southern states whop are overweight and eat lots of fried food have heart disease and die young.
Does that sound like hate speech to you? Does it sound familiar to you? Would it sound more familiar to you if you substituted the word Jew for Christian? Would it sound more like Hitler than Jesus? Was hitler a moral guy just expressing his “moral disapproval” of Judaism?
This swollen hemorrhoid of a “real” Christian is absolutely entitled to state her moral disapproval of gay people, as silly, wrong-headed, counter-productive, hypocritical, uncritical, immoral, and unloving as it is. What she is not entitled to do is tell lies, advocate pain and punishment and death, and deny me the basic humanity that she assumes she herself has.
Personally, given her attitudes towards people she doesn’t know and who have done her no harm, and about whom she clearly knows absolutely nothing– she just “disapproves” of them– well, i would be no better than she is if I questioned her basic humanity. So, i won’t.
This is what i think, john. Your inability to distinguish between “moral disapproval” and sentiments that are just dripping with venom and hate is a good indication that your moral sense is no more developed than hers is. I think Jesus probably had you in mind when he said “Judge not lest ye be judged.”
So, john, I would love to hear from you. Please explain how “Moral disapproval” in the Bible translates to Cancer on society.
Jason,
Let me acknowledge first for other readers that we seem to be beating a dead horse here, and if not for the open forum status I would probably not participate.
I’ve already said that I agree my initial response was too abrupt, but I continue to say that bringing up the stereotype about people from the south at all in relation to the comments from Kern was unnecessary, and simply helps perpetuate such generalizations. You could be Alan Chambers saying that or Mel White, I would have reacted the same way.
Perhaps your response is really coming from attitudes you hold about me for other reasons that this particular exchange?
Do you have an example of this so we can discuss it?
PS: Totally OT, if you can, please settle on one username. It reduces confusion. Thanks.
I’m not very satisfied with Rep. Kern’s response to the reaction to her comments…I’d be hesitant to call it anything like an apology. She doesn’t defend her actual words, but instead she defends a generalized statement of her beliefs about homosexuality, which, in light of the very specific things she said, I find wholly inadequate.
I want to see her explain her exact words; I want to see her try to defend the terrorism bit, the cancer bit, etc; seeing her fall back on the classic “look, these are my beliefs and I’m entitled to think that homosexuality is sinful” fluff.
Riz Said:
Sure she is Riz, she a flaming hypocrite.
If she truly believed in the Bible, she’d be speaking out against the sinful and damnable adultery of remarriage FIRST.
She’d also be openly advocating the Biblical mandate of the genocide of gay men, as per Leviticus 20:13.
But she’s not. Ergo, flaming hypocrite.
Great points Emily – yes, how can Kern not see that her views are very similar to Islamic terrorists – as well as the Nazis, who feared the Jews were “taking over.”
The Christian Right’s construction of gays and lesbians as economically privileged (and thus invulnerable to discrimination) and “taking over” is ominously familiar.
john, on March 10th, 2008 at 9:18 am Said:
“Just because Rep Sally Kern speaks out against homosexuality does not mean she is speaking hate.”
—Oh goodie, let’s see what else you have to say.
“All people live lives that are imperfect.”
—Such a sage. How very-thank you for sharing this profound wisdom with us.
“This includes heterosexuals and homosexuals.”
—OMG, WOW! being homosexually oriented myself, I had no idea that imperfection was NOT based on sexual orientation itself!
“God speaks clearly against avoiding a life of sin in the bible and life choices that should avoided, including homosexuality.”
—So now you speak, without qualification, for God, and therefore infinity, and therefore the very nature of infinite renewal — miracles themselves.
Ok, groovemeister, let’s see what else you have to say…
“People, wake up and realize that just because someone who believes the bible and speaks against a lifestyle does not make them hateful.”
—Lifestyle = sexually promiscuous…
“They are simply suggesting that people make a conscious choice to obey God in their living.”
—Ok, and?
“I am thankful that people are finally speaking a voice and taking a stand against the homosexual community’s agenda of indoctrinating our society that the lifestyle is good, and suggesting that anyone who does not agree is filled with hate.”
—Now we see what you mean. You’re contending that EVERY SINGLE same-gender attracted individual on this planet has an agenda of indoctrinating our society that the sexually promiscuous lifestyle is good.
My my John, that does sound ominous. What else was it you said in regard to that?
“and suggesting that anyone who does not agree is filled with hate”
—Dear me, yes John, you poor persecuted “Christian” you. How hateful of anyone to call you, and the likes of Representative Kern, on your intentionally sought out slander?
Oh wait, there’s more?
“The reality is that a life lived filled in sin is destructive and against Gods commands regardless of whether the foolish agree or not. Even if you don’t agree with the bible, secular health statistics shows that homosexuality is not a healthy choice. Even Matt Foreman, executive director for the national gay and lesbian task force labeled HIV as a gay disease in a speech on Feb 14, 2008. This as an acknowledgment that the lifestyle is bringing death to it’s people.“
—So, according to that “homosexuality is not a healthy choice” little tidbit, I take it that you not only believe that the very fact that someone is same-gender attracted, automatically makes them HIV+, but that in addition to that “fact,” you also believe that all lesbians must also have HIV, and are somehow spreading it sans penises?
~~~
“and suggesting that anyone who does not agree is filled with hate”
—John, when you and Rep. Kern insinuate that every single homosexual human being on the planet is HIV+ and is spreading it, it’s about disagreement of reality.
You’re not only in factual error John, but you’re in factual error intentionally John — as obviously you have access to Google — but you also claim this error in the name of the epitome of love, Jesus. — and this John, is what makes it hateful on your and Rep. Kern’s part.
This was, of course, in Old Testament times before Jesus died for our sins which allowed grace from God.
That the opportunity of grace through salvation was established however does not negate the principal of the law… Just a thought.
So killing gays was morally okay (commanded by God, no less) back then, but not now? And to think I’ve heard people say it’s the gays who have no moral anchor!
No it’s not, it’s an acknowledgment that, because of social factors, HIV infection is a problem that faces the Gay community, and is something that we need to deal with. It’s an important thing to say because so many of us have developed a knee-jerk reaction to attacks from social conservatives regarding the AIDS problem in out community that distracts us from dealing with the real issue.
The reason those attacks are distracting is because they’re irrational and offensive, and the reason for that is because social conservatives have a long standing history of just not getting it. They assert that AIDS is some guaranteed consequence of any type of homosexual lifestyle, that HIV infection is somehow inherently tied to homosexuality. They completely ignore the social factors.
It’s not inherently tied to lesbianism – not even in the most bigoted, stilted, Cameronesque logic.
Charles said:
Ah, yes. The ‘unchanging God only partially changed Its mind’ argument.
Care to expound?
Yeah but you guys are women, not real homosexuals…
John:
If the Bible spoke clearly there would not be thousands upon thousands of divisions within Christianity alone.
Again, when you base your faith on a book and not on the living God you create problems.
John, I doubt anything she said concerning homosexuality could be put into a love song, or used for a Valentine greeting card. If she is not speaking hate, please advise us of the new definition for hate because I missed that memo.
Amazing Rep. Kern embroils everyone in debate. But when a GLBT mag in CO slanders a young child just trying to go to school it geta a fwe lines and then dies. Could be that the mag acted quickly to retract and apologize even though the apology disappeared so quickly? Could be that the idea of a gay reporter writing what anyone would call hate speech about a child’s experience of gender is not much of a reason for outrage and pursuit of the roots of such hate WITHIN our own community?
If only it was the only mag to take a hostile view of children identifying their gender and parents responding in a loving, supportive way. If only… But it is not. It seems indicative of the disconnect between the T and the rest of the alphabetic equation that we identify our comunity with.
Biased, hateful ignorance within our own family, a dirty little secret that Mr. Paige of the Gayzette in Denver let slip into the light of day.
Now what do we do?
Lisa,
Please find for me where the author released a public statement defending his statement. Find for me where his fellow writers gave him a standing ovation. Find for me where he’s claiming to have received death threats. Find for me where multi-million dollar ministries chimed in. For that matter, find for me where the author was elected as a representative or even where there was a living soul who defends the author’s article.
And while you are looking, you may find your answer as to why Kern is a story and the other is not.
I find it amazing, a state like Oklahoma, which has produced such note-worthy people like Will Rogers, Patty Paige, Maria Tallchief, Jim Thorpe, Vera Miles, Garth Brooks, Vince Gill, and Reba McIntire, Clint Howard as well as others, can also produce a hateful, vile, un-Christian woman (obviously not a lady) as Sally Kern. I feel compassion for all the wonderful Oklahomans who are having to face this.
I just want to say that if gay people weren’t doing anything wrong they would not take such offense to people’s statements like that from Sally Kern.
Gays need to understand that we are not attacking the person but the lifestyle is what is being targeted. I’m sure that there are many nice, even wonderful people who are living this lifestyle, no one is saying they are not nice. The lifestyle, however is wrong.
She is to be commended for standing up for Christians everywhere to feel this way. She is to be commended for standing up for God and the Bible and not letting “political correctness” (whatever you think that should be) get in the way of her opinions and beliefs.
For people who say they are “gay christians”, I’d be interested in knowing exactly how that works, same for gay ministers. I don’t see why God would call on them to preach His word if you are living a lifestyle that completely contradicts It.
I pray that God have mercy on this country and the world for that matter.
Yes she should be commended by any1 that believes it.
What i take issue with is where those beliefs are her ‘jugdement’ on the issue.
What does this imply? That she will base off her anti-gayism not through logic/reason or anything in between. Rather, through religion, and to base ‘legislature’ on beliefs is equivalent to ‘shoving ones beliefs down other ppls throats’. WOuldn’t you agree?
Her ‘science’ reminds me of the evolution vs creationism ‘debate’. Where her conclusion is beforehand, that gays are evil… and then seeks for information to back it up. Rather than seek the information/stats and then come to a conclusion(might be gays are wrongdoers, might not).
Well, personally, I’m celibate because of my beliefs and intend to stay that way. I’m still gay, though, simply because calling myself anything else would be dishonest about where my attractions are. As for other gay Christians who aren’t celibate, I still think they’re Christians. I mean, if female pastors and divorcees can still be Christians (even though there are more verses that speak out against them than there are for homosexuals), then I see no reason why gays can’t still be followers of Christ. Personally, I think they could stand to be more faithful to Scripture in terms of their sexual behavior. But that’s an issue of faithfulness, not of salvation, and I’m not to judge either way.
So being offended is proof of guilt? Way to bully the accused, Amy, did you go to the same charm school as Ms. Kern?
We take offense because it’s offensive to call someone a terrorist, to call someone a cancer. There is a huge difference between my life and someone who flys an airplane into a building.
We were also offensive because a public servant was insulting part of the public.
First of all, Amy, there is no “gay lifestyle”, that’s a buzzword created to lump us all together, as if all gay relationships were the same, all gay couples enjoyed the same activites, it’s false and misleading.
Amy, YOU need to understand that we do consider our sexuality to be a hat we’re wearing. It’s more like a baldspot we refuse to cover. (And there’s nothing wrong with being bald). Since you know NOTHING of our lives, you cannot honestly try to tell us you’re attacking our “lifestyle”. Take the log out of your own eye, sister, before you go telling me about my life. Let he (or she) who is without sin cast the first stone. That’s God’s way of telling you to mind your own business. The faults you see in others are just a way for you to avoid dealing with your own problems.
Seems to me that Sally Kern wouldn’t know Jesus if he fell out of the sky and landed on her.
Ok, Amy, you’ve had your say.
You came to a site and said things designed to be arrogant, offensive, and dismissive. You can congratulate yourself that you “went and told them homosexuals”. You can smugly sit with your certainty of anonymity and bark words at people you will never have to meet or look in the eyes.
You are not one tiny bit interested in why there are gay Christians. If you were really even in the slightest “interested in knowing how that works”, you’d contact your local gay-supportive church. But, though you claim such an interest, you weren’t speaking truthfully. You just sought to be dismissive.
So now you can go back to your barcalounger and put on TBN and tell yourself that you are warrior for God.
Or, perhaps instead you could actually turn on your brain and use your ears and eyes. Instead of coming here to lecture and condemn, you could listen and learn.
Oh, what am I saying? You’ve already popped your head back into the comfort and familiarity of your rear and can’t hear me now anyway.
Amy:
Well Amy, be specific, what are we doing wrong? I guess when people insult you, you just smile and are as happy as a clam. When people say things against your race, your religion, your beliefs, your family, your country, you just smile and stay calm as a feather.
How would you like it if a law was passed so that non-Orthodox Christian worship would be against the law?All Baptists, Born Again Christians, etc. would be outlawed because, at least for many Christians, those branches of Christianity are considered heretical. And Amy, how would you like Catholics and Angelicans and Eastern Orthodox Christians tell you that we Orthodox don’t hate you we just hate your lifestyle and your theology.
Which lifestyle? Be specific. Not all of us go cruising at bars trying to pick up a cheap thrill like some kind of TeleEvangelist.
.
As an Orthodox, I do not commend her for her views as for me they are heretical. As a Gay Christian I do not commend her views because they are against the message of Christ.
Why do Fundamentalists always believe they need to stand up for their god. Is he weak? Does he need help? What kind of god do you worship?
How can living the Gospel be a contradiction in being a Gay Christian? The question is back to you – how can someone truely claim to be a Christian and yet shun someone from worshiping God as they are and not how the congregration expects them to be?
I do too. I also pray he give us wisdom since it is lacking so much in this country and in the Christian community.
I read all this and don’t know whether to laugh or cry inside. All the bashing back and forth going on seems silly, yet also indicative of everyone’s basic nature….to justify our own opinions, rationalize our own values, and attack anyone who is different from ourselves.
The fundamental issue that is being debated here is what the biblical view of the proper use of our sex glands is all about. Those who are attracted to others of the opposite sex assume that anyone who feels differently is wrong, and they use their bibles to prove it. Those who are attracted to others of the same sex feel that this is normal and are tired of having to defend themselves.
I don’t believe that clear-thinking persons are intending to be attacking others, rather they are attempting to disagree with the sexual behavior choices being in same-sex relationships. Their commentary is often suggested to be filled with hate, even though most of the time it is not.
It’s time to stop bashing everyone who has a different opinion.
The important thing for ALL people to realize is that if you are going to use the bible for developing your viewpoint, then ALL have fallen, and ALL are in need of forgiveness. I think that the whole point is not to debate who’s right and who’s wrong…because where all wrong.
For me, as a man, while I am completely disinterested in other men, I am far from living according to Gods intended plan because I have had sex with several women who are not my wife.
The bible was never intended to be used for others to observe the behavior of another and pass judgement, but rather to show each person what Gods best plan is for them so they may know the plans that he has for each of us.
I believe the bible is very clear that God did not make men to be with men, and he did not make women to be with women, but having said that, he also made one man to be with one woman.
Anything other than this choice is different than what we were designed to do, and we miss out on potential blessings.
As many have said, our sin does not separate us from our salvation for those who trust in Christ, it simply reminds of our humanity, and fallen condition.
Let’s stop worrying about each other’s lifestyles so much and focus on whether each person is pursuing the knowledge of God, and building up faith in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit will convict each person as he chooses.
No, Jim. The fundamental issue is not the biblical view of the use of our sex glands. The fundamental issue is that an elected official is using her position to promote her religious beliefs and to slander her constituents.
Really? That would assume that there is a God. And that ones religion is THE religion from which morality and truth is based off, which, keeping in mind the amount of religions there are… how can one oppose the existance of ‘moral relativity’. Of course.. this will not be fixed through religion, but rather.. a lack of.
I wonder… As long as theres such indoctrination by christian parents, it will take… a long time, imho.