LDS President & Prophet Gordon Hinckley Dies At 97
The worldwide leader and prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints passed away earlier this week at the age of 97. Gordon B Hinckley had been the 15th President of the Church, popularly known as the Mormons, since 1995.
In 1999, Hinckley said the following at the General Conference of the Church:
Our opposition to attempts to legalize same-sex marriage should never be interpreted as justification for hatred, intolerance or abuse of those who profess homosexual tendencies, either individually or as a group. We love and honor them as sons and daughters of God. They are welcome in the church. It is expected, however, that they follow the same God-given rules of conduct that apply to everyone else, whether single or married.
While clearly falling short of affirming homosexuality, it was welcomed by gay- and lesbian-oriented Saints as a long-overdue acknowledgement of their existence.
Interestingly, while the Church’s official position appears to favor celibacy for gays and lesbians, remaining non-committal on the effectiveness of reparative therapy, unofficial LDS ex-gay ministry Evergreen International seems more at home with the hardline positions of NARTH and Paul Cameron.
Mr. Clark and Cowboy:
I’d love to hear a bit more from RealNeal. His use of the term SSA indicates to me that he is not an openly gay man serving in his church. He is a man who is SSA and not gay and living a straight life. As cowboy points out, it is not quite the same thing.
Mr. Clark and Cowboy: I’ve been following your dialogue with interest as an outsider, who only knows the Church and its attitude towards gay people from news reports. But I would have to say cowboy’s POV seems closer to reality. I have never heard one positive thing about the Church and gay people, nor has it ever stood up and say the mistreatment of gay people at the hands of organized religion is wrong. But at the same time, I don’t doubt the mr. Clark’s experience has validity. Even the MittHead was pro-gay when it suited his politics. I’m sure there are Mormons who do not buy the Church line, who have a different experience of gay people, and who are, in fact, quite supportive of gay people. But in a hierarchy like this one, they just aren’t saying so for fear of…
The Church is nothing more than the sum of its individual members. Change enough of the members, and the reality will change as well. Remember what happened when Utah wanted to join the Union, or when Mormondom’s racist position on non-white people was no longer tenable. Each person who is involved in the church has his choice to stand up and change it.
I’d love to hear a bit more from RealNeal. His use of the term SSA indicates to me that he is not an openly gay man serving in his church. He is a man who is SSA and not gay and living a straight life. As cowboy points out, it is not quite the same thing, and certainly not the same thing as a partnered gay man serving his church in that way and being accepted as an equal to the ‘tro’s. I’d call it a bisexual, myself.
Ben in Oakland, You’re very astute. You hit the nail squarely on nearly every point you made. Thanks. And, you’ve got a lovely sense of humor when I read some of your posts on the other threads. I tend to think humour (spelt that way for the elitists that may be reading this) is necessary even in highbrow stuff. Shakespeare wrote comedy. Mark Twain was a brilliant writer and he was very humorous.
I am curious about RealNeal too. How many of his type/ilk are there? Many years ago, my family strongly suggested I get married. They pointed out several examples of gay men who I knew who were married, with kids and living the ideal Mormon family lifestyle. They shut their mouths when I asked: “Oh guess who I bumped into at the Trapp** the other night?” With a glint in my eye I would say the name of this fine upstanding gay Mormon father and it immediately became a non-topic at dinner. Oh well…my family wouldn’t understand. Especially if I told them he was wearing leather gear, he had a barbed-wire tattoo*** on his bicep and sporting a shaved head. True story.
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In every instance of my family (and friends) telling me about a gay LDS man living the ideal family life, it/they didn’t last. One wrote e-mails to me about being miserable in guilt because he had a tryst with a guy each time he goes on a business trip. Another one is in a childless relationship with his ever-understanding wife but he has now requested going on vacations separately. The wife gets the shaft in practically all of these marriages. And the LDS Church has said it did not suggest gay men get married to cure their homosexuality****. They may not have said it…but the peer pressure and implication about sincere repentance proved to be one big factor in why a lot of gay LDS men are married*****.
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**A private club for members which caters to the gay populace in Salt Lake City.
*** Prophet Hinckley forbad LDS men from getting tattoos.
****I’m trying to find documented proof of this counseling.
*****I will concede: Precise statistics lacking.
Ben in Oakland you might ask yourself what reality is regarding the LDS Church and their approach to GLBT issues and you might ask yourself what kinds of changes have happened in comparing LDS policies from lets say the 1960′s to those of today. You might even pick up a copy of Dr. Mike Quinn’s fascinating book entitled Same Sex Dynamics Among 19th Century Americans: A Mormon Example. That is a very thoroughly researched discussion of GLBT history within the Mormon Church.
Obviously Cowboy has had terrible treatment by the typical (stereotypical) Utah Mormon crowd. I have a good friend who is straight who is very active LDS, dated women down in Bountiful and several of the young women’s parents said that even though he is LDS he isn’t from Utah and they encouraged her to date a young LDS man from Utah. My friend is from Wyoming. This is the kind of crap I hear about more often than you realize. None of this cultural garbage has anything to do with my faith or my activity with the Latter-day Saints here in Wyoming whom I love very much and who love me as they have expressed that love on numerous occasions. None of it has anything to do with the loving and kind experiences I have personally had with the few General Authorities (or the Prophet, etc.) I have had experiences with.
I used to be in a different boat and was very depressed and sad all the time but I learned that I create my own reality and I could change that through my personal one on one relationship with God. I think that Gay mormons often have a two edged sword problem. We awaken to the sense of our differentness. We don’t know how to deal with it. We look outside for some help and understanding anywhere and it is often not to be found (at least it wasn’t when I grew up during the pre-internet age). We look at Church literature and find statements that are ignorant and disparaging and divisive. We then begin to internalize this turmoil and turn it on ourselves. Then we see it coming from family members who have been brought up in this mindset. It’s not just a Mormon mindset either. It is cultural. It is still the majority of Christian Church’s who do not accept our orientation as innate. We then expect people to treat us this way even when we may or may not have spoken with them personally or read what they have had to say because they might be LDS or Catholic or Evangelical. I think that many gay men project some of this negative expectation out there because we have been so conditioned to expect it while growing up. I know I used to.
I’ll tell you one thing. I deal with people one person at a time and I put God first above everyone and I trust Him and if someone doesn’t like me or they are hateful that’s their issue and I hope that my actions won’t validate their hate.
I have noticed that Cowboy and a few others have not heard what I have had to say about my experience as well as that of several others I know because it does not match their own and they cannot see how it possibly could be any different.
My argument is that there is no excuse for the marginalization by the LDS Church, but by heaven I think it’s time that we all take responsibility for our own life and happiness as opposed to taking the victim role. If anyone needs support and help there is authentic help out there in the form of counselors from the APA and other mainstream counseling organizations as well as awesome support groups who are extremely helpful. I went to an awesome LDS therapist (I got lucky on that one) when I lived in Salt Lake who used to work with LDS Social Services and who has his own practice. He helped me save my life and I know of others whom he helped in the same way as well. He was an exception when compared to the Dean Byrd school of NARTH. He helped me begin the process of learning to accept myself. His greatest concern was my happiness.
I feel somewhat ignored when I made several clear and concise statements about my initial foundational argument and where I stand. I continually hear the typical black and white cookie cutter statements of Mormon Church hates Gays and so you need to tell the Mormon Church to go stick it tirade. I frankly got extremely sick and tired of hearing that from gay people down there when I used to hear it almost daily in Utah. It was about as depressing as the other extreme of listening to extremist judgemental zealots. That is one of the main reasons I decided to move away from that place. It’s just not a stable or healthy environment if you are constantly bombarded with negative self deprecating influences as I often was.
When I came back to Utah to visit from time to time I often would visit the Stonewall Center. One day I saw a very cool flyer entitled LDS/Gay you are not alone? It was put out by the LDS Reconciliation group. You could not believe the extremist rhetoric that was written all over those pamphlets as they were vandalized by people in the Stonewall center who really had no Idea what Reconciliation is. The things that people do out of fear knows no boundaries. Whether people are LDS and straight, gay, Evangelical, etc. people will lash out at any perceived threat without using their intelligence that God gave them.
I have to tell you that I learned that if you take on the victim persona (as I did for far too long) then no matter what happens you will still continue to believe you are a victim of the person, family, organization or group whom you feel victimized by whether the threat is real or not. I believe that has been the downside of the gay community for a long time as it is many minority groups; however there has been an immense burst of growth I have seen over the years where gay people and communities have thrown off that negative way of thinking and have moved past that. The beauty and positive awesomeness that shows from these people is remarkable. Cowboy if you ever get a chance to read the book entitled THE SECRET by Rhonda Byrne I cannot over estimate it’s value. It’s about the law of attraction. Very profound.
One of my goals is to make the LDS Church and other communities in which I am involved an increasingly safer place for GLBT people. Educate, educate, educate. That is how my ward and my stake have made tremendous progress is through being educated on these issues one person and one group at a time.
Ben in Oakland I also don’t think RealNeal will post here too much because since when you click on his name it connects you to a link called LDS-SSA which is about being a “struggler” (in other words a VICTIM who is struggling with his inborn orientation pretending it is not inborn) I don’t think he will get much out of this site. I hope that I am wrong though and that he comes back here and sees the reality of what is going on out there in the world and finds tools of knowledge to help him to be happier and more self accepting. That would be a great thing.
While I am at it I want to share and contrast these two quotes with those who are reading this posting. Take a look at the LDS-SSA link that RealNeal provides. Look at the sites mission statement.
The subtle issue I see here is that this website is making a blanket statement that if you don’t support the premise of this website (the statements of G.A.s and other leaders about homosexual orientation as well as denying the right to date, court and marry another of your gender) then you are somehow not living a Christlike life. Cowboy, here’s the big foundational concept I have been trying very hard to articulate and I think I have (as Hillary Clinton recently said) “found my voice” although after hearing her speak at the recent primaries she seems to have literally lost her voice. LOL
The problem with the Church as an institution’s view about homosexually oriented people is that the Church’s (and by extension people like RealNeal and his webcast) doctrinal interpretation about us is extremely black and white. When a man who is living in a monogamous, loving same sex relationship/marriage for many years and who even has been successfully raising children in that union; is judged the same way as a guy who goes out and has sex in bathrooms (LDS Idaho Senator Larry Craig comes to mind here) and in the bushes in the parks and/or is stepping out on his wife, there’s something very wrong with this picture. It is very unjust and truly wrong.
This is an issue that is going to come up on many many occasions in the future with the LDS Church and so long as many Gay or Lesbian LDS continue to view their orientation as something to struggle against the process is going to be much longer and more arduous before things change. When I say “change” I mean change to a place of a more sure and equal footing for Gay and Lesbian LDS among the LDS heterosexual majority. That may be a tough one to deal with doctrinally because (just as with Evangelicals) they will have to reinterpret many of their former interpretations of scripture. Where Mormons are in a better place is that all LDS scripture is completely silent on the gay issue. Only the Bible is where the source of controversy comes from as far as scripture is concerned.
The LDS Church does not want to deal with those who are in a committed, monogamous same gender marriage that is validated by a state (i.e. Massachusetts) partly because they really don’t know how to deal with the issue fairly. They will have to make some major changes in consciousness before that happens and that is a painful struggle. Ever hear of the Buckley Jeppson story? Here is a gay man who was married in Canada to his same sex partner and his local authorities asked him to “resign” his membership. Buckley said “absolutely not I am a Mormon and I believe in this Church and wish to continue being part of my faith.” As the issue came out in the news the Church leaders there finally decided to just do nothing. He and his partner go to his local ward on a weekly basis now. Now in my book Buckley and by extension his partner are heroes. They force the leadership to have to deal with this and eventually that can affect change as it has in the past. John Gustav-Wrathal and his partner who live in Minnesota and go to church regularly are another similar example. It is organizations like Reconciliation that are priceless to GLBT people who wish to continue in their faith within the context of accepting themselves for who they are.
Take a look at this website and compare and contrast it with RealNeal’s LDS-SSA link from above.
You be the judge as to which one is more in line with the tone Christ set in His ministry. LDS Reconciliation not only uses the name Gay and Lesbian but also shows that a gay or lesbian person can be a spiritual and Christlike faithful person. The LDS-SSA website (like NARTH, Evergreen, etc.) teaches GLBT LDS people to deny their innate being and believe that this innate part of their being is something to struggle with (most likely throughout our entire life). I do not for one minute believe that is what the Savior really meant or ever taught. It is an incredibly liberating thing to reclaim your spirituality as a gay or lesbian person. It’s a very empowering and awesome experience to embrace your whole being and to prove to those who think otherwise that they are simply mistaken but you love them anyway.
Does it come with pictures?
Mr. Clark, I’ll type more later when I put some fires out today. I have some thoughts on Reconciliation.
Point of fact: Larry Craig is not LDS (Mormon). And Mitt Romney dropped his Idaho Spud “friend” like a Hot Potato!
Are you suggesting I see a shrink? (I hear a resounding chorus of “YES!” from everyone reading this blog. I understand, though: It is a universally accepted fact that cynicism is an innate product of the gay gene.)
Hey Cowboy,
I shouldn’t assume that because Larry Craig is a Conservative Republican and he is from Idaho that he’s LDS. I was told by several people who live in my neighboring state that he is LDS but that’s a faith demoting rumor I guess.
I cannot understand why people still call a psychotherapist a “shrink”. That’s so 70′s passe. I have been to a therapist off and on since the late 80′s until about 3 years ago. I have gotten a lot of grounding and momentum through this process. I highly recommend it to anyone who even just wants to get some perspective. I shopped around for a good one and found her. She’s great. She has recommended several awesome books to read and that is how I got aquainted with people like DePack Chopra and other similar authors.
It’s also good to vent like you have been doing but it’s far more productive to vent to real live people you know and trust and especially one who doesn’t have an agenda except that you be happy. That’s what I have gotten out of my therapist. She is priceless.
There may be some truth about the cynicism being an innate product of the gay gene; however I think it’s nurture as opposed to nature – it’s the environment. Anyone who gets kicked down by society is going to be pretty cynical wouldn’t you say? I remember reading a book several years ago by (I believe a gay couple) Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen called After The Ball. They wrote about how gay youth who have gone through immense cultural and societal rejection learn early on how to lie and how they turn lying into a science. I think we are moving out of that as gay youth come out earlier and earlier and really deal with the tough issues early on.
With regard to the LDS Church I wish that every single Gay or Lesbian LDS person would come out of the closet and write a book about their experience growing up gay, etc. It would be an earth shattering experience and would be very beneficial for the LDS community to realize the truth about what it is we go through.
It’s tragic to see people like RealNeal go to such lengths (many evening marrying a woman and having kids) to be accepted by their families and church leaders. I told several young high school kids who were asking questions of a panel that I was chosen to be on in Jackson at the Premiere of Brokeback Mountain; that when I learned to differentiate between the voice of God and the voice of my family, friends and Church leaders that I finally found the serenity and truth I was longing for. I said that in a way that I was guilty of Idolatry because I placed my Church leaders above or on par with God when they are only men. I said that though I believe they are called of God that they are not God and there is a major difference. I also have learned that just because they are called that does not entitle them to be right or inspired all of the time. The only Church leaders I have ever trusted are those who are authentically humble and who really want to understand and who trust me. They are (unfortunately) in the minority of my experiences. Most came from more urban areas in California and New York. I had one Stake President who interviewed my former partner Jason and I when we were living in California and though he gave us the Church line of “chastity” (with regard to our relationship) he kept struggling and trying to get something out that he had a tough time articulating. He finally took a deep breath and there was a moment of silence then he said “you are supposed to be together.” We left his office as dumbfounded as he looked when he had said those words. He was a great advocate for us during the next several months before we moved to New York City.
I have a gay friend who had a witness in the Temple in Los Angeles that God was helping him find his lifelong companion (another man). It was reiterated time and time again to him until after he asked just to make sure my friend said he felt frustration because he said God had already told him the answer. He told his Bishop and Stake President about this and they were dumbfounded yet they had every reason to believe him as he was very devout after he joined the church as a young man of 18 when he was living in New England. In fact his Stake President organized a Gay and Lesbian LDS group in Los Angeles that was there to be of support to provide a safe and accepting place for believing Gay and Lesbian Latter-day Saints. Do you know who shut that group down back in the late 90′s? Good old Dean Byrd (now the president of NARTH) came down to L.A. and came to one of the meetings and then returned to Church headquarters and the excuse for shutting it down was that because the Church was supporting the campaign against same sex marriage in California that it wouldn’t look good for the Church to have such an organization meeting in California. There was a big fallout from that whole event, not to mention, the California initiative passing with funding from the LDS Church. That is something that always should be brought out in the open for the public to see because it is a check and a balance to the manipulation that has happened in virtually every major religion I know of. Things like this must be exposed immediately as soon as they are discovered because it’s just dead wrong.
From these and several other experiences I began my journey of trusting the Spirit above all else.
Mr. Clark,
I think the question that comes to mind: Why Reconciliation? Why Affirmation? Why even Gamofites? (google it if anyone is curious). Except for the some very funny t-shirts they sell at the gay-pride festival…I don’t see the need (for me, anyway) for the organizations: Affirmation and/or Reconciliation. What do Buckley Jeppson and John Gustav-Wrathal need in the LDS Church? Can’t they find their religion within another gay-affirming Church?
I threw out the Rule Book long ago. I’m re-discovering the freedom to determine the principles and morals I feel are conducive to my happiness. After a relationship that went bad, it was actually refreshing driving in my truck and after pounding on the steering wheel one time to exclaim: “I’m not a bad person!” I don’t need any more angst and I certainly don’t need the hobbles and silly restrictions I would have in the LDS Church.
Just as you find a need to work at reconciling with the LDS faith I find a need to tell gay Saints that there is life after Mormonism.
The only real angst now is dealing with an orthodox LDS family. And leaving Utah (and family) is certainly an option but I’m resisting it. Changing jobs and relocating is dicey in this economy. If I had followed my dreams I would have been in California long ago. But perhaps fate dictated I stay closer to family because my instincts knew my wild-side would have resulted with me…well worse off or possibly dead.
This part was typed after I just read your reply:
It is still a very(!) foreign concept for me to grasp: That an LDS God would suggest there is some man for me. I’m not being flippant when I say this: But the words: being the branch of the tree that bears no fruit and should be pruned…is echoing in my head.
But your stories are interesting.
Hey Cowboy,
Sounds like you do need to get out of Utah and away from all of this stuff for a while in order to clear your head and sift through stuff. I know how anger and rancor toward family, church, community can create a toxic stagnant situation until a decision to leave or get out of that environment. I don’t know how old you are but you sure sound like a young intelligent man.
I don’t look at God as “an LDS God” as much as I look at God as much more inclusive than puting that kind of label on God. If you had read all of my posts here I believe God is the God of the Evangelicals as well as the Muslims, Jewish people, etc . The reason I don’t just go to another faith that is more “all inclusive, etc.” (again if you had read the other postings I left) is deeply personal and is in my DNA in a sense. I don’t feel like discussing it on this blog at this time to be honest.
I may write more when I return from Boston this next week. Please keep up the great work Cowboy.
Benjamin
This is somewhat a tangent, but does pertain to LDS, Mitt Romney, and possibly anger against GLBT. I’m a bit thrown by Dr Dobson’s statment that he would vote for Romney, an LDS person, rather than McCain. Just how is hatred of a ‘common enemy’ coming into play … almost like war… where a notorious Evangelical Christian will cast aside ‘theological differences’ in order to destroy the GLBT… where JONAH is casting aside differences in order to destroy the GLBT… where reason and dialog are being cast aside… I guess I am in shock. Is the guiding force in our lives the scriptures of the eternal Christ or eternal God? Or is it the political expendency of a temporal viewpoint?… I am greatly saddened by it all.
I was raised in a very, very mormon family. When I heard Hinkley had died, I wasn’t too sad. Of course I got the emails from my parents lamenting this ‘wonderful, kind’ man’s passing.
I decided to just try and let it go despite the hell I’ve been through because of morons like this guy. Had it not been for such goofballs I would not have been through so-called reparative therapy in my early 20′s.
The only shame here is what they put some of us through.
Chris
It’s far from the first time, unfortunately…
Thank you for the link, Eugene. It was quite an education reading the Exgaywatch comments, and then linking to a Christianity Today ‘live blog’ archive that had many of the same sentiments.
I spoke to my wife, Bon, about all of this last night.
She said, “You keep thinking that Dr. Dobson is about Christian ministry. Caryn, I listen to him on the radio, and he seldom even quotes the Bible. He is not about Christian ministry.” We then reached a conclusion that Dr. Dobson is about ‘saving the American family’ by any means possible.
Thanks for allowing the tangent…. Caryn
Morning…
Just came across this post, and thought I’d add my two cents. And while I’ve read most of the comments, I did skim a little here and there… so I apologize if I missed something crucial.
First, on change: the LDS church makes all changes gradually and — except for a handful of announcements from the President of the Church — incrementally. Not long ago, you could be reprimanded or even kicked out of the Church for even admitting to homosexual feelings. That’s changed… but depending on where you live and a number of different variables, it’s changed faster and more completely in some congregations than in others. Today, it’s possible for gay men and women to remain in the church — some with more latitude than others. It’s complex, of course, but for members of the Church, it’s familiar.
An example of such change, outside of the realm of sexuality, is the ban on blacks holding the priesthood. Before the 1978 proclamation that rescinded the ban, Elder Bruce R McConkie — a high-ranking member of Church leadership — had repeatedly said that he thought the ban would never be rescinded. In a speech, though, that he gave after the proclamation, he said simply: “the president of the Church has spoken; forget everything I ever said on the matter”.
I like that the church changes so slowly, as it allows it to mature in an orderly fashion, “line upon line” (to borrow a phrase from scripture). It’s not convenient, for me, but there you go.
As for the issue that’s been such a big deal in this thread, of President Hinckley’s comments about welcoming gays into the Church, I’ll just share my personal experience.
I was attending BYU in 1995, when I came-out to a friend and shortly there-after came-out to my bishop (the leader of our ward or congregation). I had been attending therapy for depression related to family issues, and my bishop suggested I bring my homosexuality into the discussion (my therapist was a part of the in-house counseling center at BYU and a professor in the college of psychology). I did, and my therapy evolved. I never felt compelled to change, nor did I think that change was even possible. I was happy with who I was — though I was challenged by the difficulties it posed at the time — and was more interested in learning to deal with difficulty than in becoming straight.
Both my bishop and my BYU-employed therapist were fine with that.
As the years passed, I moved around, and came out to each of my bishops, in turn. (Mormon congregations are geographic in nature, so when you move, you’ll likely move into a new ward.) Each of these men listened to me carefully and in love, and ultimately relied on my counsel as to how to proceed. I held numerous callings (the lay-clergy aspect of the church means that most adults in a ward are tasked with a specific job, a “calling” if you will). I taught Sunday School and other classes and participated in ward leadership through my callings as ward clerk and ward executive secretary. I enjoyed full fellowship in the ward in every way conceivable…
From my first awkward steps out of the closet at 23, I’ve traveled the inexorable path to full disclosure. Today, at 36, I am an out gay man and an active and important/influential/engaged member of my ward. I’ve specifically told my bishop and stake president (my bishop’s “boss”) that I’m gay… and any member of the ward that would casually know about my dating life also knows that I’m gay. I hold an important calling and teach on occasion. I’ve been asked to participate in activities with our youth.
While I date actively, I am not sexually active. I remain celibate because I value my membership in the Church. I look forward, though, to a day when the Church encourages me to find a partner and marry. It may not happen in my life, but I am confident that it will happen.
My own life very much reflects the positive influence that President Hickley had on the Church in this area, and I don’t wish him good riddance, but happy trails and fond reunions with his wife and parents.
A straight ex-cop wrote this in our local paper:
This is part of a humorous account of a certain Kansas Church sending its members to protest the funeral of G.B. Hinckley.
http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_8210106
Also, in the news
http://www.affirmation.org/media/2008_02_09.shtml
I guess a group called Affirmation (a sort of Mormon Soulforce) has sent a letter to the successor of G.B. Hinckley.
The letter says (in part):
Apparently they want to have a face-to-face chat with the new Prophet. This would be extraordinary if it happens.
And some questions for Silus Grok:
You say:
You don’t get many 2nd dates do you? Why put yourself in a dating scene if you’re not really serious about a relationship. I hope you’re not being a tease. I hope you are dating to satisfy some curiosity? Or do you like to tempt yourself and see how much of a thrill it is to get to third base with a guy? Please don’t.
I (again) need some answers from reading your experiences in the LDS Church. You said:
Except for marriage, right? You must then belong to a Singles Ward? Are you invited to singles functions? If they knew you are dating men would you not feel a little bit uncomfortable in attending a single ward and participating in their functions?
Being a ward clerk and ward executive secretary is hardly a leadership role. And if you taught Sunday School: was it clear to everyone participating that you were gay? What class did you teach?
I’m still a little fuzzy with “important/influential/engaged” member of [your] Ward.
Tell us EXACTLY/SPECIFICALLY what kinds of important/influential/engaged activities you do? I get the feeling some of your participation was when you were still semi-closeted but now what do you do when you are fully “out” to the members of your Ward?
I’m gay. I’m in a bishopric. I was in a bishopric in my last ward. My bishop knew. I have a friend who is in the stake presidency who is gay…
I have written a lot about being gay in the church, all elsewhere, but it always continues to amaze me how perfectly unwilling many gays are to accept the many good things about the church and how unwilling many church members are to accept gays. I suppose it’s all born of fear and festering old wounds.
Wow! Too many comments to address individually. Here’s some general replies.
Out – I don’t identify as Gay. SSA is about the attraction. Gay to me describes a life-style. I don’t participate in the Gay life-style, so I don’t use Gay. My sexuality is only a part of my identity, and certainly not the most important one. I am first and foremost a son of God. I’m out to the people who need to know, and if anyone asks, I’ll tell them, but I don’t think its an issue I need to emphasize. My straight friends don’t walk around telling people they’re straight.
Calling – not all callings in the SP require you to be married. There are more than just a pres and two counselors, and that’s where I fit in. For what its worth, I’ve been a counselor in several Bishoprics, on the High Council, and serve as a Veil Worker in the Temple. There are no secret “blacklists” for SSA members or any callings a straight person can hold that we can’t.
Marriage – no I’m not married and never have been. I know lots of SSA people who are married and who are happy. Also know others who are not. I think if your spouse knows about it before hand and is willing, why not?
Narth – never been a part of it or any other reparative group. Some people find it helpful – more power to them. Its an individual choice to participate.
Cowboy and hate – if you’re “seething with hate” the Spirit certainly won’t be with you. Hate hurts the hater. Hate comes from fear. What is the source of your fear?
I don’t feel in any way “shackled” by the Gospel. Living the commandments frees us to fulfill our full potential as sons and daughters of God. Sin is what shackles us and separates us from Him. I hear so often the arguments among us that you have to “be true to yourself”, and that our needs can’t be met in the Church. The attitude is “MY will, not Thine be done! My needs come first!” Yet the Lord clearly told us we came here to be tested and tried. I like these words in Mosiah 3:19 -
“For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. ”
There’s that key phrase in there “willing to submit to ALL things” the Lord subjects us to. So are we really willing? Fill in the blank on this sentence:
Am I willing to submit to _______ for the Lord?
Examples could be: sickness, famine, pain, persecution, poverty, an autistic child, depression, stress, blindness, paralysis, attending Church rather than driving in the country, celibacy, and yes – even Same Sex Attraction! The list is really endless. Yet I think how we fill in the blanks to answer this simple question in our own life is what determines our Eternal destiny. Are we willing?? Will we SUBMIT?? Its a matter of faith.
Regards,
Neal
Honestly, I know nothing about any of these situations where people say they have leadership positions when I have seen the exact opposite in the church. Maybe it shows something that is a fault–if different stakes, bishoprics have different ideals and rules, then it shows the church may have a serious problem. There is no unity. I live in So. Cal., and frankly every church around my area, which is heavily Mormon, would not accept a gay person in leadership. Also, gay people have to go through a lot to become a member and renounce their homosexuality. If you have a gay history and go on a mission, you generally are denied or placed in a heavily monitered situation. Gay couples must split if one person becomes a member.
Finally, the issue is about whether or not the church is homophobic. Let’s see–if you are not married in a heterosexual marriage, you CANNOT actually participate in the highest part of glory and heaven. So, if you are celibate all your life, you will just be someone serving a heterosexual couple. Also, as we know, the church teaches Christ was heterosexual and married Mary Magdalene. If we are to follow in Christ’ steps, we also must be heterosexual and married.
Frankly, this discussion of how non-homophobic the church supposedly is is a joke. Either you are a reformed LDS person, which does accept gay people, or you are whitewashing church action and history. The fact that Hinkley’s eulogy had a “pro-family/anti-gay” message tells you the church does not accept you.
I lived through it. I have helped members live through it. The church is often known as the most homophobic church in America (check the Religious Tolerance site).
When an apostle states he would rather his child be dead than commit sexual immorality (which includes homosexuality), you cannot wipe away the homophobic history and current elements of the church. Again, I had to deal with the church and higherups when I was excommunicated. Did you know they asked me about fisting and various nasty comments? My experience is not singular. Any checking on the web will show that some of the “pro-gay” comments are not true. The church will not change their position on homosexuality especially when they are funding anti-gay measures all over the West. Sure, drink the kool-aid that makes you believe the church is there to help you, but don’t fool people into thinking that the church has any interest in the gay person.
Aaron,
Sorry you have such a myopic view of the Church. I think you need some clarifications. Homosexual behavior is not acceptable, nor is any extra-marital sexual behavior. You evidently found this out when you were exed. Homosexual attractions, on the other hand, are not a choice and therefore are accepatable. Its the behavior that is the problem. As to those who do not marry in this life, they will be given the opportunity to be sealed to someone in the next if they live the commandments (See Oaks/Wickman interview on lds.org/newsroom). So yes, we CAN achieve the highest degree of glory.
As far as “gay” leadership – no, someone living a gay lifestyle will not be given a position. Someone with homosexual attractions who lives the Gospel standards certainly may. You probably wouldn’t hear about it, though, since they usually don’t announce your sexual orientation when they ask for a sustaining vote in Sacrament meeting.
Neal
Neal,
You say you will be sealed in the next life: To a man or to multiple women? Oh…that’s right, you feel you have an affliction like a retarded person (see also your reference to Oaks/Wickman). God will make you perfect in heaven.
If you can describe someone as myopic I think Benjamin Clark might take issue with that.
So…perhaps riding in the country on Sunday is too hedonistic for you. How about if you work at a hospital on Sundays…because, of course, they don’t close on Sundays…that’s hedonistic too? I would rather do that than sit next to someone as sanctimonious as you in the pew in your Church.
Oh we all have fears. You too, Neal. I have fear of living a lonely life and never finding love again and becoming a bitter old queen. But, most of all, I fear becoming like you.
Aaron,
Have you noticed how some commenters here are still vague about just how out-of-the-closet they are and what leadership role(s) they have. There could be thousands of closeted gay men in high mucky-muck Priesthood positions and they may be happy with that choice. But that in no way signifies an acceptance of gays.
As someone else has pointed out: The LDS Church is morphing into more accepting of gays (though glacially slow). I doubt until you see the Mo-Tabs singing Disco and jiving to rap music will you see much more acceptance than you see now.
We have seen a shift in the LDS Church, though. It no longer is debated that being gay is a choice but now they shift the burden on gays for being horribly afflicted. However, without even a mention of apology for its past treatment of its gay members. (Notice how they ignore the Affirmation group.)
**The Mormon Tabernacle Choir
Neal–First of all, you are incorrect. When I was exed, I had never had a gay experience. I had simply told the church I was gay. I told them that I had never tried anything with anyone. Yet, the council of 12 asked me numerous inappropriate questions about what type of sex gay people have. The stereotypes were staggering. You can be exed for a declaration of being gay.
Second, you cannot acheive the highest area of glory unless you are married (in fact, Joseph Smith said you have to have several wives to do so). I don’t know a single Mormon who does not know that to be a god and have your own place, you are required to be married. Yes, you can go to the celestial kingdom, but you would simply serve if you are single or unmarried.
Cowboy, you are right! I find people being very vague and disengenous about their experience. The term SSA is something that stands out. That suggests how they feel about their status and feelings.
I am the gay spouse in a mixed orientation marriage and currently serve as a counselor in a bishopric. Unlike others, my bishop does not know about my orientation; I’ve had no reason to disclose it since I’ve never acted on my attractions.
I love the LDS church – I love being a Mormon. But, I do agree that the LDS church is NOT where it needs to be in regards to gay saints; although, I do feel that we are a lot closer than we were 20 years ago and that we are moving in the right direction. But, we are a long way from being able to declare ourselves as a gay affirming church.
There is a distinction between the LDS church and LDS culture. LDS culture is largely homophobic – which is why I choose to remain deeply entrenched in my closet (my wife shares my closet). Historically, the LDS church has been homophobic as well. I love Spencer W. Kimball; but, frankly, some of his statements regarding homosexuality come across as hateful – and he did not distinguish between attraction and behavior. His book “The Miracle of Forgiveness”, which contains some of those statements, is still in print today and is often referred to by bishops and stake presidents who are working with a member who has same gender attraction (the politically correct term in the church). But, I’m grateful for leaders like Gordan B. Hinkley who have extended an olive branch.
I am also grateful when I hear accounts, as shared by some here, where LDS leaders are accepting of those who have same gender attraction but are living as the church teaches. But, let’s be honest, those are isolated cases. There is little doubt in my mind that I would soon be released if it became known that I like guys more than girls. I’ve worked with the youth for most of my adult life; but, I expect that would come to an abrupt end were my orientation to become public knowledge. I’ve even heard of cases where a membership record was permanently notated to indicate that they were never to have a calling working with the youth. It only takes one homophobic bishop to add such a notation; but, it requires approval by the first presidency to remove a permanent notation.
Bottom line is that there are legitimate concerns about how the LDS church deals with homosexuality. Some of us are able to put those concerns aside and remain active in the church. For others, these concerns of sufficient magnitude as to result in removing themselves from the church and the LDS culture. By the same token, there are legitimate reasons to stay in the LDS church. For some of us, those reasons outweigh any concerns we have.
But, the net result is that we’re all a bunch of guys who have the hots for other guys (or girls who have the hots for other girls). In the words of Rodney King “Can we get along? … Let’s try to work it out.” The reality is, we need each other. If it weren’t for gay pride and gays risking their lives fighting for equality then homosexuality would still be regarded as a mental disorder; but, if we all jump ship and abandon the LDS church then what hope do we have of ever seeing change?
I think you’ve both proved your own ignorance with the last couple of comments. I leave you to wallow in your sour grapes.
Neal, your comment means that you do not want to actually answer the comments about place in the afterlife and excommunication. You know that we are correct. Sure, someone can hide and pretend he or she is someone he or she is not–playing with terms like SSA helps to do that. However, you will never be treated fairly in the church if you are single (SSA or not). You will always be treated with disrespect after a certain age (does special interest come to mind?).
RealNeal,
I have enough intelligence to know when you and others are attempting to pull the wool over the eyes of some readers here on XGW.
Aaron,
I was meaning to tell you: I am so very sorry of your experience in a church tribunal (court). I do not relate to the wrenching ordeal because I haven’t had to go through the process…but the stories of the experiences my friends and a lover endured first-hand had profound affects on their lives. And each story was varied in the nastiness and spite shown by some of the lay clergy in these councils. I can see why so many are delivering letters to the LDS HQ to have their names removed from the church’s membership lists. They want no chance for the LDS Church to hold a court…even in their absentia. It’s brutal and manipulative experience I would only think happened in medieval days.
OK, one last time.
No, you are not correct; nor does it mean I don’t want to talk about it.
If you read comments from a number of General Authorities on the subject of marriage, they clearly state that those who do not have an opportunity to marry in this life – including SSA people – will be given the opportunity in the next. This is mentioned as well in the pamphlet “God Loveth His Children” Go to lds.org and look this up yourself under the subject of Same Gender Attraction. Its there in black and white. Do your homework.
As far as being treated fairly – that’s really a matter of opinion. I think you’re just being bitter here. I’m loved and treated well by all my Church family. I’m included on all levels and with many families and singles. Your experience may be different than mine, but it is certainly not universally applicable.
As for excommunication, its difficult to say what happened in your case, since I wasn’t there and we only have your side of it. However, the Church does not excommunicate people for having same sex attraction. If you didn’t have a “relationship”, then there must be some other reason why they took that action. I’ve been in a number of Church councils as a member of the High Council or in Bishoprics, and each one is different and specific to the particular person. Much of the outcome depends on the attitudes of that person and circumstances that brought them to the council in the first place. I have never been in one that was not conducted in a spirit of utmost love and concern. If you had a bad experience (and I’m sure there have been some), there is an appeal process you can go through. But to say the Church excommunicates people for homosexual attractions is completely inaccurate. I know married SSA people who cheated on their wives that were not excommunicated. The outcome is a very individual thing.
Ok, now I AM FINISHED with this ridiculous thread. I have other things to attend to.
Neal
Cowboy,
And it’s obvious you have already become a bitter old queen! Very, very bitter!
RealNeal said:
RealNeal, please keep comments respectful or at the least civil. These sentiments are not appropriate at XGW.
Neal, you may not respond, and I am tired of this too. I am not angry about my experience, and no, the only excommunication reason was being gay–even though there was no sexual things that went on. This happened in 1990, so maybe some things changed. However, the marriage thing is somewhat correct that you mention. The church states that if you are not married, you will be married if you already were in life and just not templed. Also, members are largely exempt–if they had a chance to marry and did not that is a bad thing.
Here is the the statement about marriage: “The Mormon Church teaches that if a couple marries according to Mormon ceremony, and each lives an obedient life, they may attain godhood at the resurrection. The Doctrine and Covenants teaches,
[Y]e shall come forth in the first resurrection; . . . and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths . . . (and you) shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to (their) exaltation.” (132)
The passage concludes, “Then they shall be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting because they continue. . . . Then they shall be gods because they have all power, and the angels are subject to them.” (132:20)”
Is it true that a gay couple, if they (or an individual) are to be baptized, must split and never see each other?
Is it true that the church has special interest events for people over a certain age who do not marry?
Is it true that people who are not married are somewhat pressured to marry–to the point of disfellowship?
You also state that SSA is not a choice, so if you are created that way, isn’t it cruel to assume you will be forced, after death, into a relationship with someone who you would never be attracted to in life?
If the church did not have a problem with gay people, why did it create the Values Institute to combat homosexuality? Check out http://www.exposingmormonism.blogspot.com/
Cowboy, thanks about your comments. I actually have pride that I stood up to such sad treatment. Like I said, my Mormon path is not something I look back on badly. I lived through it, and I am happy. I am cool with it. And you are not a bitter queen as Neal stated…:)
It seems that Abelard Enigma contradicts some of what RealNeal has said. There are permanent notations in the Church records; ala: a “secret “blacklist”? Who gets to see these records? How do you know to make an appeal to the First Presidency if you know nothing of this permanent record? With a lay clergy, is anyone able to read these records and affect influence on someone’s career?
Mr. Enigma…we’re all seeking what is comfortable for each of us. It would be extremely difficult for me to be in a long-term relationship with a woman because I could not perform…ahem…what a heterosexual woman would and should need. That’s not an option for me. The only other option (according to LDS rules) is to stay single and bide my time until I die. To some people they have no problem with that. I can’t because (maybe) I have tasted the fruit of what a caring, loving and fulfilling sexual relationship means. Apparently, that is where some people feel they are stronger than me. They also feel I’m hedonistic for having fantasies or longings for a same-gendered relationship.
It’s a touchy (pun intended) subject. I know it would be cataclysmic if every closeted gay Saint suddenly came “out” to their wives and church authorities. It would devastate some livelihoods and some innocent people might be hurt. I understand and I can’t volunteer a recommendation as to what the LDS Church should do. I have a suspicion they already know the magnitude of this same-gender attraction plague that is in their midst. Something will have to be done.
And when I see that the next leader in the Mormon Church is not willing to talk about it and recognize a group of gay and gay-friendly people. I can’t sit in a church where I feel the members and its clergy don’t understand my plight and dismiss me as being weak.
Aaron,
I appreciate your thoughts. I have some issues with self-esteem. They are born of my circumstances and where I live and how I cling to my family. That’s my comfort zone right now…and I feel Mr. A. Enigma understands too. At least he writes what I think we both have been trying to say and I sense “truthiness” in what he types.
There are permanent notations in the Church records; ala: a “secret “blacklist”?
The permanent notation is not a bad thing necessarily; it is intended to keep pedophiles from working with children; but, it can, and has, been misused.
Apparently, that is where some people feel they are stronger than me. They also feel I’m hedonistic for having fantasies or longings for a same-gendered relationship.
Fortunately, not all of us feel that way. Some of us have made different choices. I believe the choice I’ve made is the right one for me; but, it would be arrogant for me to suggest that the choice I’ve made is the right one for you or anyone else.
And let’s be honest here – most, if not all, of us have had fantasies or longings for a same-gendered relationship at one time or another. It’s just that not everyone is willing to admit it.
I think I am going to stop on this thread. I respect the church even though I had some issues with it, and I like many of the people in the church. I don’t think anyone wants to intentionally hurt anyone else in the church. The church’s history of dealing with gay people is less than stellar, and it is good if they are dealing with it and changing attitudes. I have no interest in the church. I will never rejoin it because I don’t believe in the church or its belief system. However, it is a part of my life–a part of me in many ways. I have no intention from stopping someone from deep belief in the church even if they are gay. It is a sad, hard road. When people around you are married and have children, but you are single, it is not something I envy. Good luck to all in your endevors.
Cowboy, I would love to sit down some day and talk. Maybe one day our paths will cross–you never know. You are a fascinating person, and we would have tons to discuss my friend. I will mosy along now.
Had a great trip to Boston. My former partner directed Angels in America there and it was an excellent production. That is one of my favorite shows of all time.
I wish everyone on this thread well and I hope things continue to progress forward. It’s important that we ALL stay strong in the grass roots political process because we truly can affect major change in society through this process. The LDS Church (as an institution) is also a microcosm of the greater society so eventually as society changes (society has a lot of growth to accomplish in general) and is far more accepting of GLBT people things will improve.
Even RealNeal has his place inspite of his apparent self-righteousness and inability to imagine himself in a same gender relationship that is an extension of his own family including parents and siblings, ward family, etc. RealNeal is at least showing himself as a guy who has gay feelings and his congregation knows this. Just be patient with this man because as time moves forward and he falls in love with someone of his own gender when Cupid shoots his arrow into this man’s heart his tune will change.
The fact is you cannot reject this part (yes it is not all but it is a very crucial and important part of you) of who you are without rejecting your soul, your very spirit and an innate God given part of yourself.
RealNeal might think about turning it around and looking at what it would be like if straight folks were given the same challenge as he has accepted. How long would a General Authority even last under such a command? Can any of them imagine what it would be like to feel attracted to their wives prior to marriage, falling in love with them and not being able to even so much as hold hands in public with them and having to promise to never “act” on their attraction? That is the reality of the situation.
Things are bound to change in the Church, however, I believe society has got to change even more dramatically in our country and other nations as well before we will see the dramatic general change that we are talking about here.
Interesting dialogue we all had. And I didn’t even get to Caryn LeMur’s comments! I certainly learned a few things. I want to apologize for some things I might have said that were offensive. I might blame it on overdose of Mtn. Dew and how a caffeine high can make me type things I later regret. Forgive me…but it’s my only vice. (I get terrible caffeine-withdrawal headaches if I don’t have a swig once in a while.)
Yep, Aaron…we could have a chat and compare notes. I think the day might come when we will see President Benjamin Clark sitting in one of those big red comfy chairs on the stand at the LDS Conference Center. (He will be the one wearing polished cowboy boots.) And I might be sitting at the console to the organ. You never know.
So…as I tip my hat to all on this thread. I let the reins slack and rest on the horn on my saddle as I gently poke Bessy in her flanks and ride off into the sunset. Fade to black.