Ex-Gay Watch

Re: David Roberts: “How can any one person be so certain, without any investigation, that what the Houston Press reported is not accurate for some, even one of these groups?”

Because I have a long-standing history with MKP, I know the guys in Houston, and I know from direct experience that inappropriate behavior DOES NOT GO ON. The men who come to the weekend bring all sorts of painful wounds — including sexual abuse traumas — it would be insane for any of us in MKP to pile on additional traumas on top of that. I myself am a survivor of sexual abuse perpetuated upon me by a psychoanalyst in my adolescence, and as an adult have worked in mental health. I know about professional boundaries. Besides MKP I have a long involvement with 12-step and other recovery-from-dysfunctional childhood support groups. If MKP were perpetuating abuse, I could identify it immediately and would denounce the organization hither and yon.

The editors of exgaywatch highlighted everything from the article that had to do with nudity and being naked, as if they assumed their readers were prudish Victorians (I guess their heads would explode if they went to a Radical Faerie gathering).

Chris Vogel, the author of the piece, cherry-picked facts and sources, then mixed it in with half-truths and outright lies and is peddling it as legitimate journalism. This is how the McMartin “Satanic ritual abuse” hysteria of the 1980′s turned into the unstoppable wildfire that it did. Of course the children are now 30-something adults who have come forward and said that everyone was lying back then, including them.

La plus ça change, la plus c’est la même chose

Rick, please follow more closely. Pam highlighted these issues because of the point her post illustrates; reparative therapists sending those distraught over their homosexuality into a group of men who take their clothes off, handle a large wooden phallus and talk about sex. And all this in the name of changing them from gay to straight (that is the RT’s intent). Now try to get past the shallow Victorian pot-shots at us and focus on that. Nudity per se is certainly not the issue.

So back to the question, Do you think anything done in those outings is appropriate to change sexual orientation?

There is no comparison to the McMartin case. Those witnesses were very young, coached children and there wasn’t any evidence. Certainly you must admit that at least the first four bulleted items in the post are accurate.

If you get something out of these meetings, I’m thrilled. That’s a non-issue. But please separate that from the issue here – they are two different things.

Guess what, David? There are a substantial number of guys who claim that the MKP weekend helped them with their SSA issues. There are also a substantial number who claim that MKP helped them in the coming out and self-acceptance process. It is difficult to get past the Victorian pot-shots when you and Pam make it seem like the entire weekend is all about getting naked and handling a phallus. That is clearly what you and Pam think. The McMartin analogy is appropriate because that also involved media-driven hysteria.

The MKP weekend (the NWTA) is about accessing and honoring what Robert Bly one’s “deep masculine” and regaining (or some cases simply gaining) one’s confidence as a man, one’s inner warrior. Stuff which modern-day Victorians will never understand, much less appreciate.

Perhaps, but I do recognize and evasive answer when I see it.

I completely agree with Rick.

Pam’s article has the flavor of an Enquiror article written for shock value skewing facts before finding them. It is totally fixated on the part of MKP that focuses on body issues. The phallic symbol passed around is nothing more than to make men lighten up and get more comfortable about talking about their body issues.

For G-d’s sake this is like taking issue with the Vagina Monologues and is only one hour of a fraternal weekend that offers so much more.

There is not, never has been, never will be anything that is forced, inappropriate, or deemed unethical at these weekends. You are completely at choice at MKP, can pass on any exercise, leave whenever you want and not be harrassed or stopped.

These are *not* therapy, psychology or psychiatric weekends. They are psycho-educational only to instruct and offer self-help.

There are trained professionals in psychodrama work. You do not have to be a psychotherapist to be trained in psychodrama and provide weekend workshops.

This is true about any workshops including Landmark, Esalen, The Millionaire Mind, Body Electric, Radical Fairies and others.

I hope exgaywatch will not let reparative therapists and exgays spoil the goodness, richness and beauty of a men’s forum that saves men’s lives and relationships.

Responsible journalism is about collecting all the facts and then determining from them what is really happening. This article is not responsible in my judgment.

One thing I think exgaywatch is completely missing that MKP provides is a forum for men of all orientations to come together in their differences without being divisive.

Why is it so hard to consider the concept that USSA’s, SSA’s, gays, exgays, ex-exgays, quesioning, and whoever can come together and get different things out of the same weekend workshop.

I hope exgaywatch will not allow Cohen, Throckmorton, NARTH and any other USSA therapist/therapies to cloud the judgment of what MKP truly is about.

It isn’t about who refers to these weekends it is about what happens on these weekends and the profoundly positive results it has had for men of all orientations all over the world!

To Mike Airhart:

You wrote:
___________________________________________________________
“I myself might enjoy such a program — but this same program might have done terrible damage when I was 18 to 25 years old and extremely unconfident and uncertain about myself, my values, my rights and my safety”.
________________________________________________________

I am not sure how you think the MKP would have done this to you at that time in your life? There is no agenda for any man going in other than what he wants for himself.

I wonder programs like Body Electric, programs at Esalen, Landmakr are not given the same scrutiny that exgaywatch is giving to MKP.

It this hype about MKP is mainly because reparative groups and therapist refer to it, why not explore their motives? Why aren’t the answers given by Rick, myself, and Carl the executive director of MKP enough? What will be enough?

I honestly hope that some or all of the exgaywatch men might consider attending an MKP weekend and see for yourself rather than relying on heresay as that is all you will get no matter who you talk to.

Warmly, Joe Kort

Joe, how is what you have just said any different that what we would get from Nicolosi, or Cohen, etc, about reparative therapy? How can we maintain a standard of proof from them, and not apply it to MKP?

We have you, Rick and possible a few others rushing in to profess the nearly miraculous wonders of MKP, while others contact us literally frightened that someone in that group might find out they have broken confidence to share what happened to them.

The way this has escalated, I have to ask you; are you paid by MKP or related organizations? Do you join these people you refer in these weekends, participating in the same activities?

This actually sounds like fun… dont get the purpose of things like beating the chicken with a hammer but im sure it might turn to be quite interesting.

According to whats been said…

I dont see why there should be such rigourous standards for this… i mean, they come and go at their own free will. Theres no coercision, no forced, no religious, no political or social influence/power acting for or around this. Ppl already know their going to be exposed to things like touching a dildo and prancing around naked, if you dont like it, DONT GO… its not like you need to in order to be on equal footing(unlike those that profess reparative therapy).

This sounds more like a recreational camp then anything else. If I go, I just go for kicks and laughs… and a different perspective on things is never a bad thing i think. But if its to serve a more controversial purpose like in order to be a man i need to do/think or be a certain way… then by all means, scrutinize all you want.

Harm… maybe be more explicit that their going to be touching genitals too, it doesnt get more explicit than that. Unless they also have sex there which apparantly they dont.

No genital touching. Whatsoever. If stuff like that went on, we would not have a variety of men, from blue-ribbon heterosexual married Republican fathers to single bohemian gay men, recommending the MKP weekend.

The stuff involving the chicken occurs after all the serious work in the weekend is essentially over, and is done as a joke, with the explicit obviousness of a Monty Python or Saturday Night Live skit.

Says Pam Ferguson:

“However, red flags are raised soon after by a barrage of yes or no questions phrased in such a way as to make one feel wimpy who dares to answer ‘no’.

* Do you have the courage to face your own fears and insecurities and discover the tremendous power and beauty that lies within you?
* Are you willing to step into the fullness of who you really are?”

Well, I guess if these questions qualify as “red flags” for Pam, then about 99% of all personal growth workshops, programs, and literature in North America must be suspect.

No strong opinion about these programs. Just want to state that I (who post here regularly) am a different ‘Rick’ from the Rick posting above.

David,

I am not paid by MKP. I went through the program in 1999 and it changed my life. I am still gay–probably more gay then when I went in. Imagine that!

You question the escalation? It is you who seems to have an agenda here and have done a poor job in journalism by letting Pam write an article about something she knows nothing about.

The MKP also has “Women Within”. Did you know that? Do you think ex-lesbians attend and tell their ex-lesbian friends? My gosh I don’t understand the reason you are so skeptical other than your reactivity around exgays which is where your attention should be.

The majority of men who attend do it voluntarily from their hearts.

What makes me different than Cohen and Nicolosi??? I don’t tell men it will make them gay, straight, transgender, or anything of the sort. I tell men it is a self-help program to assist them in creating a more mature masculine involving integrity, honor and respect for other men and allowing other men to be different and living they lives “they” want to live.

Again, David, it is your judgment that men are frightened to talk. This is outrageous. No one is bullied or frightened. They are standing by confidentiality protecting a program that has the highest standards and integrity.

David, why don’t you start asking around to those who have attended the Millionaire Mind and Landmark and see how open they are with the step by step process. They won’t be. Like any other workshop, the mystery of what happens is part of the fun. You ruin the weekend otherwise.

Instead of targeting MKP, you should be targeting NARTH and the others for recommending the weekend as a way of changing orientation.

MKP has already shown you they do not use the program to help those who want change.

I don’t understand, again, why you are not listening to that or responding to the explanations I have given and that Rick on this blog has provided.

Also, for years now MKP has sponsored all gay/bisexual men’s weekends with some straight men helping. They don’t have all USSA weekend workshops.

Doesn’t that say anything to you?

This is exactly what exgays want—controversy, trouble and divisiveness.

MKP does not have ties with exgay groups that is what I have been saying all along as well as has their statement. MKP can’t control what NARTH and others put on their sites. I put it on my site and in my second book and endorse it. What you are saying is like the Christian right saying that MKP has ties to gays and it should be stopped and using my work as proof.

MKP doesn’t endorse anything but helping men become better men—for those who choose to attend their weekend.

This whole thing reminds me of Jerry Falwell and other anti-gay bigots who take a snapshot of something that goes on among gay men and say, “See all gay men are bug chasing, drug taking, promiscous sinners!”

And we all know that some gay men are as some straight and bisexual men are. But they are not all like this.

David, I hope you will respond to the answers given by both Rick, myself and the others in favor of MKP in terms of the all gay weekends and the lack of USSA weekends and all the other explanations you call “vague”. You have not responded to them hardly at all on this blog. Why?

Warmly, Joe

Rick,

The red flag is not in the questions themselves…all excellent questions. For me, it was in the way they are phrased to make it sound like any man who doesn’t go to New Warriors isn’t man enough to answer those questions. I said in the psot it was the phrasing, not the questions themselves. That was my intent.

As to your assertion that some men say the training “helps” them with their SSA. This is the ENTIRE concern I have with the retreat. It really means nothing to me that some men say this is helpful to their SSA. (what does “helpful” even mean for them?) My ex-husband went to a manhood retreat put on by his therapist (who has now been convicted of molestation) and I’ll be blunt and tell you that when he returned, at the time, it did seem to “help” him towards being interested in sexual relations with me. On reflection, it seems maybe it gave him a strong need to get some sexual release.

It’s difficult for me to understand how you can use the assertation (that these retreats help ssa men) in any way at all to justify (if that’s what you’re doing) New Warriors as an appropriate prescription for ssa men. The basic tenants of New Warriors(certainly as it pertains to gay men) and Reparative Therapists concerning manhood are fundamentally at odds.

Here are my questions (for the moment) for MKP:

Did one or more of its NWTA programs accept referrals from ex-gay organizations or accept registrations from people who identified themselves as struggling against same-sex attraction?

Do any of its NWTA programs engage in boot-camp-style hazing, verbal and physical abuse, and involuntary detention as described by the Houston Press, and if they do, is this disclosed in advance of registration?

Are applicants rejected if their medical questionnaire indicates emotional and mental instability, drug/alcohol problems, or past sexual abuse?

Here is my question for JONAH and NARTH:

Why do your web sites promote programs to ex-gay strugglers that utilize hazing, detention, and sexualized activities with people of the same gender?

Here’s just one example of the hazing and detention, which I find indefensible when it’s done to people who (like Michael Scinto) had demonstrated emotional instability and alcohol problems.

From the Houston Press:

On an isolated 11-acre compound down a winding, country dirt road 110 miles north of Houston, Scinto watched as the leader of the men’s group instructed him and nearly 40 other strangers in the room. Put one foot on the carpet. Make sure to keep that foot on the carpet at all times. The leader then began grilling them about who makes them mad.

“They provoked the men into a rage,” wrote Scinto in a letter to the Madison County Sheriff’s Office. “They were telling 1 man fuck you, you are ­worthless.’”

Scinto felt nauseous and told a staff member he needed to leave.

When Scinto had arrived the day before, men dressed in dark clothes, faces painted black, stripped him and his fellow initiates of their keys, wallets, cell phones and watches. Now, wanting to go home, Scinto demanded his keys and his wallet back. Not that keys would help at this point anyway. After all, he didn’t have his truck with him; Scinto had been driven up Interstate 45 from Houston, through the rural town of Madisonville and over to the training compound located on the grassy ranchlands of North Zulch. All the men were carpooled because they were told there was not enough space for everyone to park.

Outside and away from the other men now, the group leader sat next to Scinto.

“He told me that if I left,” wrote Scinto, “I would be causing harm to the other participants. I told him that I did not care. I told him to get my stuff so that I could leave. He said that if I left they would kill…(I was) convinced that if I ran they would catch me. At this point I feared for my life.”

It’s that sort of abuse that could have seriously wounded me when I was a young adult.

That is the thing there is no abuse that occurs on the weekend. Everyone is dealt with the utmost respect.

Warmly, Joe

Here’s more.

Scinto initially agreed to sign up and pay the $650 for The ManKind Project’s New Warrior Training Adventure several weeks earlier after hearing about it from his Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor, Kim Sawyer. Like everyone else who attended, Scinto was not told what the weekend would specifically entail. He signed several confidentiality contracts and liability waivers and filled out a medical questionnaire, but was promised all activities were voluntary and he could leave at any time. Plus, of course, he trusted his sponsor. Sawyer, a business coach who counsels corporate clients on how to run more effective businesses, had been Scinto’s sponsor for about eight months. Sawyer joined The ManKind Project more than a decade earlier and sold the idea to Scinto, telling him it would be the best thing he could do for himself.

“So many of the character defects that eat you [sic] lunch can be replaced by strengths and skills and understandings you’ll discover from this training. It will be the best Return on Investment you ever got,” Sawyer wrote to Scinto in an e-mail before the initiation.

As Scinto became increasingly distraught at the retreat, staff members fetched Sawyer, who later told police that Scinto was crying and explained that he had unearthed a traumatic childhood memory. Sawyer told Scinto that leaving would be difficult and that it would be best if he expressed his thoughts and worries openly with the group.

Scinto had to make a choice: stay and continue with the program, or try to walk away alone along the poorly marked country roads, lost and terrified someone was close behind, hunting him down.

Scinto stayed. …

At the end of the third and final day of the retreat, the leaders and staff members herded the initiates into the main room.

“They threatened us with imprisonment,” wrote Scinto. “They said that if we were married to tell the wives we loved them. They told us not to discuss any of the process that we went through. Then they let us leave.”

Fifteen days later, on July 25, 2005, Scinto’s father and sister found him dead, rotting in his apartment from a self-inflicted shotgun wound to the head.

After investigating their son’s death and the organization’s internal documents:

The Scintos came to believe that the group seemed to target vulnerable members of 12-step recovery groups and that its leaders appeared to practice psychology without a state license.

The MKP clearly has the best of intentions, and I’m all in favor of voluntary recreational masculinity/spirituality retreats for men. But I’m sorry, if the Houston Press article is accurate, then it appears that the NWTA is not a voluntary or recreational retreat. There is nothing “poetic” about verbal abuse, threats, and detention.

And still more from Houston Press:

The organization maintains its nonprofit tax status by asserting it provides educational services. However, critics say this claim is a sham. If the organization said it was doing therapy, it could jeopardize its special tax status.

“What it boils down to,” says Rick Ross, head of the Rick A. Ross Institute of New Jersey, which studies cults, groups and movements, “is that they are doing group therapy, although they won’t admit to that, and they are not qualified to do group therapy. They are not licensed and they are not accountable.”

Norris Lang, who chairs the anthropology department at the University of Houston and is a former therapist, agrees. He took part in an initiation retreat in 1997 and then attended several Integration Group meetings before deciding to leave the organization.

“Some of the exercises that they had us engage in,” he says, “were fairly traumatic and normally, as a psychotherapist, I would have only engaged in some of those activities…in the security of a hospital or psychiatric facility. If you get somebody to get in touch with their feelings from, say, 30 years ago, a time when they were abused as children, that can be fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional. It’s kind of group therapy without any professionals involved.”

And more:

Ross says The ManKind Project appears to use coercive mind-control tactics. These include limiting participants’ sleep and diet, cutting them off from the outside world, forcing members to keep secrets, and using intimidation.

Critics such as Ross have additional concerns as well, including the targeting of 12-step communities and what they say is an inadequate vetting system to determine who can and cannot withstand the stresses of the program.

“What they have is one size fits all,” says Ross, “and that’s the problem. So, the net result is you get people with issues and troubles, and the pressures of the program can crack them and cause them to have emotional distress. And that’s why they have waivers you have to sign. They don’t require waivers because everything is fine; they want them because everything has not always been fine and they don’t want the legal liability. The bottom line is, I wouldn’t recommend MKP to anyone under any circumstances.”

If the NWTA practiced full disclosure; accepted liability; refrained from any abuse, coercion or detention; rejected weak applicants; and ensured that all activities were monitored by trained professionals…

If all that happened, then they would meet the same standards that we already expect of ex-gay programs.

If the NWTA practiced full disclosure; accepted liability; refrained from any abuse, coercion or detention; rejected weak applicants; and ensured that all activities were monitored by trained professionals…

If all that happened, then they would meet the same standards that we already expect of ex-gay programs.

This is basically the official position of XGW.

I hate that it has to come to this, but Mike Airhart and Pam Ferguson are responding to the Houston Press article as if it had been dictated to Chris Vogel’s laptop by G-d atop Mount Sinai.

Guess what? Publications are created by Human Beings, with all the baggage and biases of that such types of human beings as editors and journalists eager to sell papers and make a name for themselves are subject to. Chris Vogel had already made up his mind regarding what MKP was about well before he started researching, and then interviewed only those individuals who would support his thesis. I have worked in newsrooms, I know what reporters are like, and this is all-too-common.

I have supported Rick Ross’ efforts over the years, but he is dead wrong about MKP. There is no charismatic leader calling the shots, there is no mental, spiritual, or physical coercion, and there is no pressure to recruit.

Regarding Pam’s question, the weekend serves primarily to help guys achieve a rediscovery (or discovery) of their masculine spirit. For certain SSA guys, it may not make them straight, but it can provide a needed sense of fraternity and affirmation of their own masculinity, an issue far more serious than many gay men are willing to admit. For some gay men, it helps reconcile being a man with being gay. It is as simple as that.

Rick,

What specific falsehoods are reported by the Houston Press? Please document them.

Which specific witnesses are lying about what they experienced, and what evidence do you have to substantiate a reason for them to lie?

No organization is perfect, and it surprises me that anyone would claim that the MKP or any other group is perfect and therefore exempt from expectations of transparency, accountability, and safeguards for participants.

The refusal of MKP’s defenders to weigh the specific concerns of critics and to directly answer questions is alarming.

The ManKind Project
Position Statement on Reparative Therapy

The ManKind Project adopts the following position statement:

We affirm that all men are welcome on our trainings and in our communities.

We create trainings and circles in which all men are welcome to discover the deepest truths. We welcome men of all sexual orientations: gay, straight, and bisexual, including those who identify as having unwanted same sex attraction, to do their own work as they define it, to respect the identity and value of others, and to take responsibility for the impact their words and behaviors on others.

We support each man in pursuing his path to deeper authenticity. We do not provide therapy nor endorse any particular therapy, including reparative therapy. Any group or organization that states or implies otherwise does so without our permission.

We do not, and will not, attempt to change a man’s sexual orientation.

We stand firm in support of gay and bisexual men. We support men who believe that homosexuality is a normal part of the spectrum of human sexuality and of mature masculinity.

We will not tolerate proselytizing for any religion or belief, organizing training staff into groups that exclude others, guiding men’s processes in a predetermined direction, or grooming men for the training.

We will not tolerate discrimination on our trainings or in our communities. We support our training and community leaders in identifying and challenging discriminatory language and behavior.

I never claimed that MKP is perfect, so I wonder where you got the idea, Mike, that I said it was, or that anyone said it was?

I will adress your questions later, when I have more time, but I am on a business trip at the moment.

I have read the posting and many of the responses, but not all (I confess). I am a gay man, 52 yrs. old, justing coming out, and I’ve just returned from a New Warrior Training Adventure.

It was one of the most empowering and affirming experiences of my life! Those attending were gay, straight, bisexual, and questioning. Be assured: nobody was invited to touch anyone else’s cock.

Events are run by area groups and I am sure they may vary from place to place. The one in the central Carolinas area was completely respectful.

Yes, it was challenging: emotionally, spiritually, and some physically. But again, it was for me a tansformative experience, not an end in itself but an important step on my journey.

I’m sincerely glad that so many people benefit from the NWTAs.

So that no one is injured, I think it’s essential that people know what they’re getting into, before they sign up.

I think it’s essential that people with fragile emotions, drug/alcohol issues, and past or present sexual/physical abuse issues be excluded for their own safety.

And I think it’s essential that untrained leaders be supervised by therapeutic professionals to ensure that participants aren’t inadvertently abused or manipulated.

And I seriously question the tactic of sleep and food deprivation and verbal abuse.

I believe my suggestions for reforms to protect prospective participants are modest and reasonable. I’d love for someone affiliated with the MKP or NWTA to explain why participants should be unprotected, unscreened, silenced, denied information in advance, and denied legal recourse and compensation for avoidable injury.

Like the graduates of NWTA, many people claim to benefit from ex-gay programs. That fact in no way negates the harm done to some people, nor absolves ex-gay programs of ethical and moral responsibility to avoid harm and to fix harm when it has been done.

I scanned through the article, and I identified eleven major lies and/or major distortions. The stuff about staff going drill sergaent on the initiates, screaming at them that they are worthless, intimidating them, threatening to imprison and kill, and denying them the freedom to leave…all that is absolute b_ls__t. The diet restrictions? Very minor restrictions in terms of what is available, but no restrictions as to how much you can eat, and in fact far less rigorous than most spiritual retreats in North America. Sleep deprivation? Some activities might run late on some weekends on occasion, but the amount of sleep lost is hardly trauma-inducing. Cold showers, yes, but if you find a cold shower traumatic, I hardly know what to say. My yoga instructor also advises cold showers for his students, so I guess he must also be some cultmeister.

Personal growth weekends of all sorts are generally held in secluded, natural locations — rather than in 24-hour shopping malls, but no one is “forced” to do anything — including stay.

The accusation of genital touching is the creative fiction from what I pick up is a woman who as far as I am concerned needs some serious counseling.

Scott Cole is not the executive director anymore but his replacement could have been easily acessed, and this is a more serious flaw than is apparent: MKP has an office in Houston, with a full-time secretary. All Vogel had to do was show up and ask, but he didn’t bother, because he had an agenda. Thus he didn’t seek out those who staffed in Houston, nor the current exec dir, in order to allow them to respond to the charges Vogel levels at them. He does ask Les Sinclair the “dick” question and the chicken question, but nothing else of serious concern. This is a form of journalistic denial of the right of habeaus corpus.

And no, we don’t go talking about MKP every chance we get afterwards, we don’t stalk, and we don’t even encode pro-MKP propaganda in cyberposts.

However, the phallus used in cock talk was indeed erect as Vogel writes. Whoever heard of a flaccid phallus?

Personally, I would hope that critics of the Houston Press article will state specifically which professional therapists, witnesses and victims of abuse are lying, how they are lying, and why each one would lie. Documentation is required — not just accusation.

Not acceptable in this discussion, in my opinion:

• Broad generalizations that no one is harmed or that all critics are liars. The Houston Press has already documented that some people were harmed, and Warren Throckmorton is hearing from additional individuals who were harmed.
• Silence regarding the alleged lack of safeguards, the alleged lack of professional credentials among NWTA leaders, and the alleged failure to screen out vulnerable individuals prior to admission.

While I know that some NWTA graduates go on to live happy heterosexual or gay lives, I am curious to know whether any graduates of MKP or NWTA activities have gone on to serve with ex-gay organizations.

I am most concerned, however, for individuals who were referred to NWTA events by JONAH or NARTH. If they are willing to talk confidentially with someone from Ex-Gay Watch, I invite them to do so.

Joe said:

The ManKind Project
Position Statement on Reparative Therapy

Yes, we added those to the post as soon as we received them from MKP. However, these were only released early in 2007, and the history of reparative promotion and referrals to MKP goes back years and continues unabated.

And if MKP were serious about making this rejection of reparative therapy intent clear, why would someone have to ask them before finding out about such a statement to begin with – it doesn’t appear to be available to the public and certainly isn’t common knowledge.

if MKP were serious about making this rejection of reparative therapy intent clear, why would someone have to ask them before finding out about such a statement to begin with[?]

Because they make money from those cases.

Emily,

It is not about making money. That is a judgment based on nothing unless you know something I don’t know.

MKP takes the position that they want men from all walks of life to know they have a place at the table within the MKP Organization. They did not know initially that reparative therapists were so destructive. All they saw were men with unwanted same sex attractions wanting access to a men’s weekend.

It wasn’t about money I know that. It was about not leaving any man behind who was interested in a men’s weekend workshop experience.

In the interests of interjecting some fact into this discussion, Warren Throckmorton has posted a link to a “Primary Integration Training Facilitator Manual” from the Mankind Project, 2005. I’ve only read about 20% of it, but it is quite revealing.

This is apparently used by leaders who hold “I-Groups”, a kind of maintenance group which “Warriors” are asked to attend after the weekend experience. I suggest anyone interested take a look for yourself (at the manual linked within).

If the scope of this warrants, we may prepare a more detailed post with some of the facts. In the mean time, comments simply claiming how wonderful this group is from proponents are of little or no value. As Pam said in her post, we get both good and bad comments on this just like we do reparative therapy.

We are only concerned with the facts.

David,

What are you trying to do? What is your intention in revealing the inner workings of MKP? Are other groups like Landmark, Body Electric, Esalen workshops next?

What is it you are so passionate about that is connected to the exgay movement at this point. You have your answers.

At this point it seems like you have a personal agenda that is not even related to the exgays any longer.

And now you are linking to Warren Throckmorton’s site?

You are making this into something other than is for your readership here at exgaywatch in my opinion.

All I can say is OY VEY! I am out of this discussion now. I believe myself and others have sufficiently established that MKP does not endorse reparative therapy. If USSA men decide to go through MKP and believe it will make them straight that is not because of anything MKP has done.

I thought that was what this was all about. It seems to be about much more now for you.

Warmly, Joe

I believe myself and others have sufficiently established that MKP does not endorse reparative therapy.

You haven’t established anything as far as I can tell, Joe, other than that you think MKP is the best thing on the planet and they have a recent, cloudy statement about reparative therapy to which no one has access without a request. Like everything else about MKP so far, it’s a damn secret.

This has nothing to do with any other groups, however from what little I know of Landmark, I wouldn’t use it on your MKP resume.

The people on this site have little patience for secrecy and shadows, no matter what the claimed reason. I linked to the “inner workings” of MKP because we aren’t getting any facts from you or Rick. I don’t care who found it and posted it.

We have a serious article in the Houston Press, a wrongful death suit over a person who you don’t even seem to acknowledge, and a long, long history of MKP and New Warrior groups intertwined in ex-gay and reparative propaganda. What we are “trying to do” is find out the truth, and relay it to others – that’s what we do.

I read the newspaper article about the tragic death of Mr. Scinto. The wrongful death case seems quite weak. It is extremely difficult to hold someone responsible for another’s suicide, unless they had some sort of Kevorkian like participation. The allegations of kidnapping seem stronger, but those also are going to be extremely difficult to be successful with unless someone comes forward to corroborate Mr. Scinto’s allegations. Since Mr. Scinto is dead, he can’t take the stand and argue that he was in fact held against his will.

I suspect the family knows all this and doesn’t really care. Bringing the case can get people into depositions where more damaging information may come out about this group. It also gives the family a vehicle to call attention to the group, the membership and the group’s odd practices. It might even get people to think about what they are doing to others.

I find the concept of trying to find one’s masculinity perplexing. We are who we are. If we can learn to accept ourselves, it really shouldn’t matter how butch or fem we might appear to others.

It has also been my experience with children and adolescents that screaming at them, berating and belittling them does not usually result in a positive outcome. I doubt the practice would be any more productive with adults.

Joe said,

If USSA men decide to go through MKP and believe it will make them straight that is not because of anything MKP has done.

“USSA”? What is that, a new US-Russia merger? Why do you use these terms like everyone is familiar with them? Isn’t that how SSA, SSAD, etc came about in the first place? Cohen and NARTH brought us SSAD “Same Sex Attraction Disorder” and we have “gay-identified” from Exodus, and we have “USSA” now from MKP?

You don’t get to just make this stuff up and expect everyone to play along with it. If you mean someone who isn’t happy with their sexual orientation, then just say so. We don’t need any more labels, we are swimming in alphabet soup now.

I’ve posted before, saying how great my MKP New Warrior training weekend was. I stand by that.

I felt I was more than adequately screened. I felt safe through the weekend. Was I “intimidated”. NO. Were there some things on the weekend that could be seen as “intimidating.” Yes! Challenges in life are often intimidating.

MKP is a very challenging experience.

And, MKP is more organism than organization. The expectation that life, the universe, and everything can be adequately “explained” a misguided one, IMHO.

Is there “secrecy” involved in MKP? Yes. The various elements of the weekend make little “sense” when taken out of context.

As far as MKP and the realm of this blog (about those recovering from the fallacy of RT), I believe the organization has evolved on that (from what I understand from a close friend with extensive experience with MKP). MKP is not perfect. But I believe it is progressing.

Again, I felt my weekend was the most affirming experience I have ever had, because it was gay and straight folk together, affirming one another.

Mike, David…why don’t you simply go to the MKP website and ask to attend either a graduation ceremony or an Open Integration group in your area? I say this not because I am trying to recruit either one of you into our fold, but because the both of you might see what we are actually like. In fact, I invite you to have either an exorcist and/or a deprogramming expert waiting for you afterwards in case you fear that you will fall prey to a loss of free will. In cyberspace, if Joe Kort and the testimony of other gay men won’t persuade you guys, then nothing we write ever will.

David,

USSA is nothing that I made up. That is what the men call themselves who come through the MKP.

I assumed that since you are exgaywatch you would know that it meant men who have Unwanted Same Sex Attraction.

It just looks like exgaywatch is becoming mkpwatch.com and if that is your goal so be it.

I have read every book there is on SSA, exgays, USSA’s whatever they call themselves at any given time. I want to know their every move as it is filled with hate toward the gay community and never want to be blindsided by them.

David, I would be expecting you to be reading these books too so that you are familiar with their lingo. You are preoccupied with the wrong organization. It is the exgays I thought you were watching right?

David,

If you are so interested in knowing more about MKP then why dont you call Carl Griesser or email him at executivedirector@mkp.org You were not on the phone bridge with Carl, Wayne Besen and myself. Are you following up with actual people from MKP or just heresay from exgay therapists like Throckmorton?

You can check out MKP all you want. Carl was very revealing on the phone call. He is the man to talk to as he is the executive director. Why aren’t you putting your energy there instead?

As for the man who sadly killed himself, he was not an exgay. He was self-identified heterosexual man with a wife and children. I did not think I had to acknowledge him on this site. I have acknowledged him in my heart in other ways. He is not part of this discussion.

Again, isn’t exgaywatch about informing whether or not the groups are doing reparative therapy and endorsing exgays? You still think they are in business together creating a USSA empire?

Mike,

Your concerns are genuine and I can understand from reading the Houston Press article why you have them.

There is no verbal abuse, disrespect, sleep or food deprivation of any kind at the workshop.

The verbal abuse that occurs is if a man is role playing someone in his life who verball abused him. It is a stand-in actor. For instance, I had an uncle call me a sissy, faggot, mama’s boy when I was young so I invited a man to role play this uncle to do some psychodrama work around it. The verbal abuse was part of the psychodrama that I asked for to reenact parts of my abuse to heal.

If a man at the weekend doesn’t want this, he doesn’t have to do it. There are hundreds of other ways men do their work.

Sadly, most males are punished, humiliated, bullied and ridiculed by other males if they don’t fit into patriarchal boxes.

Joe said:

As for the man who sadly killed himself, he was not an exgay. He was self-identified heterosexual man with a wife and children. I did not think I had to acknowledge him on this site. I have acknowledged him in my heart in other ways. He is not part of this discussion.

You have an amazing talent for compartmentalization, Joe. This victim was not ex-gay so therefore there is no reason for us to discuss him in relation to MKP? It’s all connected, and certainly relevant.

Your claims of persecution are not helping any of this. If you have something germane and factual to add to the discussion, do so. We’ve heard enough of the drum beating.

I’ve asked you in private and in public with no response; do you ever attend these weekends with the people you refer? Are these ever clients?

It’s a simple question, and should betray no “inner workings” at all. Will you answer?

Joe – I have not been to a NWTA so I cannot provide personal experience. However, I am reporting what men are telling me. This is what you are doing, telling what you experienced. You say there is no verbal abuse, etc., others have come forward and say there is. We have two different stories, neither of which I can verify personally. However, I can tell you that 8 men have independently contacted me via email with strikingly similar stories. Are they collaboration? I do not know for sure about all of them, but I do believe that at least 5 of them have no knowledge of the other. They gave specific places and times they attended and told stories of being verbally harassed, especially if they decided not to take part in an aspect of the weekend. There are other similar aspects to their stories as well.

Over several days, I have exchanged emails with Mr. Griesser and will continue to attempt to get a statement or something on the record that I can provide saying these things do or do not happen. It occurs to me that the secrecy surrounding the MKP invites these inquiries.

David,

I am happy to answer your question.

I have referred and continue to refer hundreds of men to the weekend. I do not attend the weekends myself. I do not get paid by MKP. I do not get a referral fee. I don’t get any kickbacks for promoting it financially.

Again, given that you have heard all of my answers now, I still await yours as to why you think the MKP has alliances with reparative therapy still after hearing from everyone otherwise.

And also why don’t you contact Carl? Will you answer that?

I have referred and continue to refer hundreds of men to the weekend. I do not attend the weekends myself. I do not get paid by MKP. I do not get a referral fee. I don’t get any kickbacks for promoting it financially.

Thank you for going on the record with this.

Again, given that you have heard all of my answers now, I still await yours as to why you think the MKP has alliances with reparative therapy still after hearing from everyone otherwise.

Everyone? Joe, there is precious little actual information in this thread. And again, perhaps the third time it has been stated, posts by proponents – or opponents for that matter – are not facts. We don’t take them as such from anyone else, so why would we on this?

Of all the things which are widening the scope of our concern, your reactions, almost reaching paranoia, are high on the list. Please calm down and let us find out what we can. If there is more to report, we will.