Ex-Gays Initiated Into Manhood Through New Warriors Training Adventure
In an attempt to turn ex-gays into real men, some in the ex-gay camp recommend a weekend retreat called New Warriors Training Adventure to their clients. An interesting and enlightening discussion of the New Warriors program can be read at Dr. Warren Throckmorton’s blog , where the following retreat activities are described as taken from a recent article in the Houston Press.
• Blindfolded walking tours in the nude;
• People blowing sage smoke in his face while 50 or so naked men danced around candles;
• Men sitting naked in a circle discussing their sexual histories while passing a wooden dildo called “The Cock”;
• Naked men beating cooked chickens with a hammer.
As Throckmorton notes in a follow-up post, there was a rift a few years ago amongst the New Warriors when a local branch hosted a talk by NARTH founder, Joseph Nicolosi.
The New Warriors Training Adventures are put on by The Mankind Project (MKP) and are described eloquently at their website as an invitation to step forward and look in the mirror. However, red flags are raised soon after by a barrage of yes or no questions phrased in such a way as to make one feel wimpy who dares to answer “no”.
- Do you have the courage to face your own fears and insecurities and discover the tremendous power and beauty that lies within you?
- Are you willing to step into the fullness of who you really are?
- Are you willing to discover the real joy and terror of being a man?
From the descriptions given by the Houston article as well as commenters at Throckmorton’s site, it appears the New Warriors Training focuses more on terrorizing than discovering joy. Participants are literally stripped down, physically and emotionally. In the article, one woman retells her husband’s description of an activity.
…everyone was sitting Indian-style in a big circle in the lodge when the man leading the group said, ‘If you wish, you may reach over and grab your brother’s dick. If your brother doesn’t want your hand there, he can remove it.’ Well, my husband told me he just froze. And from that point on, he just wanted out.
According to Dr. Throckmorton, many of the activities sound like group therapy, and, in fact, part of a wrongful death lawsuit currently being leveled against MKP, and featured in the Houston Press article, is for practicing psychotherapy without a license.
Of course, as with any controversial practice, there’s at least one positive testimonial to counter each negative. It becomes interesting to note, as pertains to our interest in the retreats, that the New Warriors Adventure Training Retreats are attended, and in some cases led, by gay men. Furthermore, we’ve heard no reports of the gay men questioning their sexuality after having positive experiences at the retreats. Apparently, gay men can be initiated into manhood and remain gay. This would seem to fly in the face of the reasoning used by NARTH and Richard Cohen in their recommendation of the $650 weekends to ex-gays.
There are no cautions or disclaimers listed at the New Warriors website. In fact, it seems mandatory that prospective attendees be kept in the dark about just what goes on there. However, I was able to find this warning from one doctor, who is not connected with the ex-gay movement.
I don’t, however, believe the program is appropriate for everyone, and so I don’t send everyone across the board. I don’t send clients who are exceedingly fragile or suicidal. I don’t send clients who are in active alcohol or drug addiction. I tell them to get sober first. I don’t send clients who have unresolved sexual abuse issues. I encourage people to do their work around these issues before attending a weekend.
This doctor’s disclaimer, according to NARTH’s research, would exclude most, if not all, gays or ex-gays from eligibility for the New Warriors Training.
The Houston article goes on to describe the follow-up Integration Group (I-Group) meetings that participants can attend for eight weeks for an additional $190.
… where men discuss how to incorporate the organization’s philosophies into their everyday lives. Suggested activities to do during the Integration Group meetings include shaving another man’s face, kidnapping a member of another Integration Group, and changing clothes with another man.
Ex-Gay Watch is interested to know if any of our readers have attended the New Warriors Training Adventure. Our concern with the program relates mostly to its prescription and potential harm to those seeking ex-gay therapy. But whether your experience was positive or negative, we would like to hear about it.
Addendum: Since posting, we have received a copy of the MKP’s position statement (PDF) on reparative therapy from earlier this year.
Filed under: Change, Media, Mental, NARTH, Therapy, Uncategorized, Warren Throckmorton
Why does the New Warriors remind me of the Radical Faeries?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_Faeries
Apparently sexual congress is not specifically banned between staff and participants at MKP training weekends including 1/ New Warrior and 2/ Leadership. I only hope that condoms are not amongst the items confiscated at the start. Medications ARE however confiscated and only doled out when requested - but since watches are also taken away anyone on timed medication such as for HIV a/ will always be uncertain what the time is, b/ will have to take the med. on a food deprived stomach and c/ will have to cope with even a refusal. There are far more *loving* and *respectful* retreats for men, e.g. Authentic Eros, etc.
Objective reality escapes these people completely. What could be a more “manly man” experience than going though basic training when entering the military? Here is the beginning of one site’s take on the experience:
Compared to the one week of New Warriors Adventure Training, the twelve weeks of basis military training ought to “make a man out of you” if being a “manly man” and being heterosexual meant the same thing, as advocates of these training programs imply.
The fact that even after the more rigorous military basic training, there are still gays in the military ought to show anyone with a lick of common sense that “manly” activities have no bearing on sexual orientation one wit.
One of my ex-gay therapists, David Matheson, tried to convince me to go on a New Warriors weekend. (I could never get the name straight, however, and always referred to them as Wild Woodsmen.) Matheson was part of Nicolosi’s practice at the time; he now has his own counseling practice in Salt Lake City.
I told him I’d been through enough life-changing weekend retreats, conferences, and events over the previous 28 years and couldn’t raise the enthusiasm for one more. I didn’t know much about New Warriors, but what I’ve learned since makes me glad I said no. I don’t have any big philosophical problem with their approach–sounds like the Iron John thing–but for me, these attempts to recreate tribal manhood ceremonies are simply too artificial and forced to be personally helpful.
What I do find interesting, however, is that many gay men do participate in New Warriors training. As their web site says, “We welcome men of any age, religion, race or sexual orientation.”
As others have observed, if getting in touch with your masculinity changed homosexuality, how do you explain all the gay men who embrace these intense manhood-building programs but remain happily gay?
Nick - I am curious about your experience. I wonder if this was referred to everyone as a matter of course or was it brought up because change wasn’t occuring? I am trying to get a handle on how reparative therapists view these weekends - as a part of the total package or just as an adjunct when something is not happening in the therapy.
Sounds like a place we used to call “The Red Door” in on Castro St. in SF. Turns out it was a sex club.
This new Warriors training… isn’t it just a rip off of a sweat lodge experience without the hot rocks or the ceremonial/spiritual stuff. More like the stuff of erotic dreams.
Thank you for the catalyst for having such a dream tonight.
I am gay and I am more of a man than 90% of the straight guys that I know.
Most straight guys are pu**ies.
How does the religious right define manhood anyway?
Manhood to me is bravery, integrity, making right decisions under pressure, honesty, intelligence, etc., etc.
Isn’t America tired of these ex-gay wackos yet?
NickC,
Correct — I also know alot of gay guys that are very masculine.
The ex-gay program and the religious right are based on ignorance and stereotypes.
In answer to Warren’s question:
At the time David Matheson tried to get me to go through the New Warriors training, I believe he had just discovered it. This would have been sometime in late 1999 or 2000, at which point I’d been having weekly sessions with Matheson for about two years, mostly by phone.
My impression was that he had been through the weekend himself. He was definitely very excited about the impact at least one other client had seen. He told me that he really believed that this would absolutely be the key to a substantial breakthrough or change for me.
In terms of how the New Warriors experience fit in his therapeutic approach: Mattheson subscribes to the idea that male homosexuality is rooted in a disconnect from one’s own masculinity and sense of power. This had been his major theme throughout my sessions with him. I’ll refer you to the document “MANS for Journeyers” on his current website, http://www.genderwholeness.com. Here’s a typical quote:
“Men with SSA tend to be disconnected from the mainstream male world and from other men. And they are typically disconnected from their masculinitiy–from their own genderedness.”
I never really bought this analysis for myself. As I frequently pointed out to Matheson, I’d already spent nearly 30 years pursuing masculinity, and frankly felt pretty comfortable about being a man. I had formed a number of close relationships with other men and had engaged in a lot of masculine-identified activities–from raising sons to rebuilding houses. I had spent almost 20 years in a charismatic community that put a huge emphasis on development of masculine character and defined male/female roles. None of that had made the slightest impact in changing my homosexual orientation.
Matheson believed that the New Warriors created a very powerful sense of connection with masculinity and with other men, and could provide a trigger that would succeed where these other attempts had not. I thought it would just be one more overwrought weekend experience.
Everything I’ve heard about New Warriors since has confirmed what I thought then.
G.,
Most of America doesn’t know much about ex-gays, reparative therapy, or ex-gay ministries.
It’s not our fault that you haven’t met any straight guys that meet your requirements for manliness. Those sorts of remarks don’t move the discussion forward and are of the very sort we’d complain about when leveled by straights against gays. There has been too much name-calling and thread drift around here lately. It’s not something we’re going to tolerate so please refrain.
G., please stop making blanket generalizations about entire groups of people. Some of your comments above are entirely inappropriate here and I think you must know that.
Also, you have a persistent habit of posting short comments and one-liners, one after the other. Please think about what you are going to post beforehand and consolidate those thoughts into one comment where possible.
Thank you.
Pam,
Reparative therapy is a religious based therapy to address a scientific issue [sexual orientation] that does not need addressing.
The existence of reparative therapy is absurd and is the 21st century equivalent of performing excorisms or beating left handed people with a stick when they use their left hand.
In a nut shell it is unacceptable, barbaric, dangerous and should be banned by law.
I do not debate the value of bleachig black people’s skin white inorder to address the issue of racism by whites or the cultural/educational problems in the black community.
So please tell me - why are you debating the value of reparative therapy? Is it not humiliating and highly disrespectful - not only to people born gay - but of scientific inquiry in general?
David,
I fight back hard againt bigotry. I think it works.
G., Pam said nothing in defense of reparative therapy, so cool it. Also, there are many people of faith here, so stop bashing them with your bigoted comments. She rightly pointed out the fact that your comments are inappropriate for this site, as did I. Pay attention to those warnings.
After reading so many ex-gay feeds, posts were getting monotonous. But this post brings “ex-gay WTF!” to a new level.
G,
“Scientific inquiry in general” is not best served by banning things that you know little about but find objectionable.
seems to me the premise that homosexuality stems from some sort of gender identity problem is unfounded.
I think it comes from the stereotype that we’re all cross dressing drag queens and flaming, limp-wristed “sissies”.
(let it be known that I have no problem with cross dressers, I think drag queens are hilarious and a legitimate art form, and that flaming, limp-wristed “sissies” are just as good as me or you.)
If they stopped for a moment they’d realize that most straight men don’t fit the stereotypes of the “masculine” man. And if they wandered around a few gay bars they’d notice that yes, there are men who fit the this or that stereotype, but mostly they’d just see a lot who aren’t much different than your average straight man. A straight friend of mine came into a gay bar with me once and after 5 minutes asked, “Wait, are you sure all of these guys are gay??” She couldn’t believe it.
It took me awhile to realize that true masculinity doesn’t come from other people, nor can someone’s negative opinion of me take mine away. As a gay man, my masculinity is called into question automatically — I just decided that it didn’t really matter much what the answer is to that question. I’m still me, and I’m a great guy. Some think I’m butch, some don’t, and that really doesn’t change who I am deep down. Nor do I care what they think either way. I used to, I used to care very much to the point of obsession.
My dad, a Marine, never bothered to “teach” us to be men. As a confused teenager I resented his lack of instruction. But as an adult I realize that A) I probably would’ve resented the instruction, B) I would’ve probably rebelled against it anyway, and C) what my folks DID teach me : Being a good person, living ones life with integrity, honor, compassion, and a sense of humor is most important — and that’s not something that is or should be exclusive to men.
Old friends have noted that I am happier and much more comfortable in my skin than I have ever been in my life, and I know part of that is rejecting the notion that being gay makes me less of a man. I don’t think masculinity can be taken away, I think it’s something that is always with you. I think that self-confidence and being comfortable with who you are is what’s important.
Matheson, like many ex-gay therapists, was big on the idea that gay men sexualize other men as a way to gain contact with the masculinity they fear or reject.
Yet since I’ve come out, I have found it easier than ever before to form non-sexualized friendships with other men. Simply being relaxed and open about who I am makes it much easier for me to connect with other people and form friendships. My kids definitely comment on this. The biggest change they see from the father they knew when they were growing up is how much less isolated I am from other people.
So maybe David Matheson was right all along–my problem was that I was disconnected from masculinity and other men. He just had the wrong answer on how to fix that!
Please tell me why you’re asking me that? You might want to check the archives, particularly a 3-part series I wrote about my own experiences with reparative therapy, so that you will know that not only have I not engaged in any debate with you or anyone else about the value of reparative therapy…*whew*, long sentence….but I’m not even a fan of it. I also disagree with your statement that RP is not humiliating and highly disrespectful to people born gay. My experience found it to be both of those things.
I just want you to stop name calling and stay on topic. That’s pretty much all I said.
I’m a bit lost on the handling of genitals outside of a situation of trust.
Maybe I was indeed abnormal as a ‘male’ in my prior life … but I’m truly lost on why a man would allow a untrusted man to handle his genitals, and then claim it increased his masculinity. I think it would increase his sense of being just another piece of meat, and break down the barrier of ‘trust’.
I’m trying to get my mind around this one… without insulting any person. Really. But aren’t they accidentally teaching men that male-to-male hand-to-genital contact is ok among untrusted strangers? Or, if you are a ‘real manly Christian’, are your genitals suppose to be available on demand to any male in authority? I mean… that sounds so beyond anything I’ve heard of Christian counselors ever endorsing… at all. Isn’t developing ‘proper boundaries of trust’ a better concept prior to miming sexual conduct?
Warren: Is there some sort of Evangelical Professional Counseling organization that would make a position statement on this sort of conduct? As always, not trying to entrap you at all, but I am assuming that FOTF or similar has already bluntly spoken against this conduct. Sincerely; Caryn
Is “Warriors” somehow related to the AIM (Adventures in Manhood and Floyd Godfrey)?
What is the scoop on this organization?
I will add to the discussion on topic that while the therapist my ex-husband and I were involved with didn’t specifically recommend New Warriors that I know of, he did put on a sort of “manhood” retreat of his own and he WAS a big abuser of holding therapy as per his recent conviction. It just all smacks of the same YUCK.
David,
“People of Faith”, as you put it, are primarily responsible for making gay people’s lives very difficult - not only in American but all over the world. Calling a bigot a bigot is not bigotry.
Is it bigoted to criticize the KKK? Am I bigoted against the KKK by pointing out the harm their cause has done people?
I particularily am offended by people who disguse their bigotry as eternal truth - that makes them the worst of the worse. You may disagree with me but I have plenty of examples. What is worse than someone whose bigotry against people born with a different sexual orientaiton is based on, necessitated by, their “Faith” - the thing they cling to like a life jacket?
The religious right fought tooth and against integration and interacial marriage in the last century. In this century they have turned their bigotry toward gays.
Religious and “Faith” based bigotry have been around for centuries and are responsible for wars, torture, murder, oppression, and injustice.
Please forgive me for offending “people of faith”
G., you are just as wrong, and just as bigoted as those who say that all gays are sex addicted fiends. And yes, calling a bigot a bigot is not bigotry, which I hope I have just illustrated. Go find a place where this nonsense is welcomed.
G., humans are primarily responsible for making gay people’s lives very difficult — so I suppose you hate all humans?
People who make ridiculous sweeping generalizations don’t just “offend” — they start wars, commit genocide, and relegate entire segments of the population to second-class status or prison.
You and others who overgeneralize are not part of some solution, you’re a part of the problem that gays face.
“NickC: Yet since I’ve come out, I have found it easier than ever before to form non-sexualized friendships with other men. Simply being relaxed and open about who I am makes it much easier for me to connect with other people and form friendships.”
I’ve noticed this about myself as well. Although it was a different path. When I first came out it was like being a kid in a candy store! But the kind of kid who isn’t sure what he wants, and isn’t sure what he should or should not have. I adopted this very flamboyant personality, then a very “straight acting” personality (even was a regular poster at straightacting.com for 3 years) and then I realized that those two things were just as fake and ill-fitting as when I was pretending to be straight.
Once I stopped letting other people tell me how and what gay is things improved, that goes for gays, straights, and anti-gay folks. Once I realized that being gay was just another facet, that I didn’t have to look or act a certain way, that I didn’t have to buy certain clothes or have sex a certain way, I got more relaxed.
Once I stopped trying to invent myself and just let myself be who I am, then things fell into place.
Didn’t hurt that I also quit drinking and smoking around the same time, too.
Mike,
That is not at all what I wrote. Nor can you infere it from what I wrote. All humans do not make gay people’s life difficult -”religious right” humans do [Tony Perkins, Lou Sheldon, Lafferty, Dobson, Robertson, Ken Huctherson (Antioch Bible something or other…), Alan Keyes (Gays are pedophiles, and “I kicked my Daughter out of the House b/c she is one of the enemy” Keyes)]. The list goes on and on and on - AND they have unprecendented political power in this Country right now.
Of course I am talking about humans - dogs and cats don’t discrimminate against gay people.
Their belief system is a choice and I challenged it - and they challenge how I was born [last century it was racial minorities and women - the century before that it was left handed people and “witches”]
There is no place in a civilized society for that. It is wrong - its that simple - and its been going on for far too long. When will people learn from history?
If you use an ancient text to stereotype and discimminate against a gay person that should be against the law and it will be someday soon. Enough is Enough. Scandinavia here I come - now that is civilization.
I know that many people who commit acts of violence and murder against gays also claim that they were motivated by what the bible says - or use it as another reason for hating gays. Maybe not a 100% direct link but sometimes a strong one.
Religious fundamentalists of all religions are grave threats to democracy and civilization.
You’ve had your say, enjoy Scandinavia.
“Nick C. - Yet since I’ve come out, I have found it easier than ever before to form non-sexualized friendships with other men. Simply being relaxed and open about who I am makes it much easier for me to connect with other people and form friendships.”
After 21 years of marriage and many years in reparative therapy that ended horribly, at the age of 43, I came out. The stereotype of the homosexual lifestyle was my biggest fear. Turns out, all that I had “learned, heard, and was taught” about living as a gay man was totally false. I have healthy relationships with men, and deeper more meaningful friendships.
You don’t have to be naked, touching, dance around fires, beat chickens to be a man or masculine.
G.,
Things don’t and won’t change with such a bitter attitude. How do you expect anything to change?It saddens me as a gay man, of the unwillingness I see in you to “help”educate and not slam.
This web site is a huge benefit and serving a great purpose if you can look at in that light!
Nick,
I found your post really touching. I’m glad you figured out what your blocks really were and cleared them so you feel comfortable with yourself.
G, Conflict can be a great healer if you allow it to be ok, and look at why you are conflicted. None of us want to be put upon by anyone, ever. Now that it is so intense it’s pretty tough to feel grounded at times. It can be quite maddening. This fight is being won, it will not continue if we hide out and do not educate. I do respect your position, you are mad, you have every right to be mad. As a professional anger buff of the past, I know how nutz one can feel when sensing attack, I used to go balistic, child abues past etc. But I have also noticed I do not get recognized unless I keep my cool and say concise statements. And I still faulter sometimes. Thanks for your input regardless.
So people I have this awesome idea. After reading this coverage about New Warriors, and men sitting naked passing a dildo to get in touch with there masculinity, among other things on the list, it sounded like the perfect porn set. Then I got this huge image of Mike Myers bellowing “ohhhh Beehaaaaave!!!” I think it’s time to do a full length feature film comedy on the Exgay movement, Ben Stiller style. It could be one of the best public service announcements we could muster.
Mo Latoh,
Devlin
Jason,
Wonderful post.
“Once I stopped trying to invent myself and just let myself be who I am, then things fell into place.”
Yes, indeed. One clinic in Chattanooga were I worked at odd times had this poster:
“Be who you is,
Because if you be who you ain’t
Then you ain’t what you is.”
Silly in a Pogo-esque sort of way (we have met the enemy and them is us), but there’s lots of underlying truth to it none-the-less.
I honestly wish I was a more generous soul, but I’m not. At moments for comment, such as this, and struggling against own desire not to disparage…
I still come back to the look I imagine on my father’s face. Always.
Beating a dead chicken flat? : well, it did BBQ very well that way. Good tip to remember, I’ll do that next BBQ. Perhaps with a splash of wasabi and sherry.
Blokes seeing other blokes in the nuddy from time to time?: urgh, yes, who has not? Part of life as a guy, is it not? Like, guys have a penis: strike me dead.
Grabbing “The Cock”.
Nope. You’ve lost him.
eye browes raised: “I’ve had just about enough of this…”
That’d be his words, just before he stood up and left. Mine too, frankly.
As for paying good money to be yelled at, abused and laying on bare concrete floors: good god, you self-indulgent wimps: you loved it. You wanted it. Yah begged for it. Now, why do it?, why let them do it?… there’s some real questions for you.
And while one is indulging that fetish to weep about yourself and your life… children are dying of hunger in this World. Children are dying of hunger in this World as you beat that chicken.
A dead chicken, beaten flat… how appropriate a symbol of these “Warriors”.
Yeah, “BBQ Soldiers” more like it.
Honestly, but… this is not therapy, it’s self indulgent mental masturbation. For spreadingly-waisted, white, (comparatively-)rich men. Those of you so inclined are welcome to it. Me? I’m sorry but, honestly, I have starving and uneducated children to worry about in this World before I even give a moment’s grace to this type of horse manure.
Huffing “sage smoke” at vast expense is, therefore, a low priority; you’d be well to guess.
Starving, uneducated children… sage smoke on the weekend… ooooh, the dilemma…
Good grief.
Sorry David, tried to stay nice but…. jeepers creepers… all the problems in this World… and this… consider our eyes so rolled far back we’re staring at our own minds. Ooh… ugly sight
They might ask a woman what manliness is, and it’s very often going to be the characteristics that Jason described.
Maybe what this discussion is about, is the perception of toughness and tolerance for what’s physically and mentally challenging for most people.
Most men I know cringe at the idea of crime scene photography, which is my line of work.
This warrior’s camp (what, no concept of WOMEN warriors?), sounds like a mix of cultural as well as gender stereotypes.
My conspiracy theory brain is thinking, who could this organization blackmail later for attending such a retreat?
My other brain, the one that’s constantely rebelled against convenient and monolithic gender stereotypes almost cringes at the folly of these camps.
Toughness can be developed in anyone.
And I’d say it’s the gay men who ARE open, live free, are themselves and found they had the guts to DEFY all those doom sayers and live their own truth. Those are tough guys. Drag queens and kings are TOUGH, and not shy in that defiance.
It’s the ex gays I find weak, to tell you the truth. They are anemic on the challenges it takes to protect and retain their orientation.
They join the powerful Christian community for shelter and point fingers from behind their line at the rest of us with the bravery to meet the challenges of being gay or a pro gay supporter.
It’s HARD to be gay, it’s not easy to assert that identity.
Giving it up, now that’s not a show of strength, but resignation.
Gay folks are already tough. The proof is everywhere.
I see a teddy bear of a guy like Esera Tuaolo, and his grid iron record…..and boy…..talk about TOUGH on the outside, and honey on the inside.
Let the anti gay eat their hearts out!
Just to add to Jason’s post, I think this kind of program also appeals to the “ex-gay” and fundametalist/evangelical Christian movement because of their own belief in a rigid male/female dichotomy. Not only is every human born either male or female, in their thinking, but that gender dictates enormous amounts about the individual. Masculinity and feminity are narrowly defined, and all men and women must meet those definitions. Just look at the current mini-controversy brewing amoung the right wing religious groups about women wearing pants (I know Pam’s House Blend had a great post on this a few days back).
The irony of course is that the right wing dismisses any talk of a genetic basis of homosexuality with a version of the phrase “genetics aren’t destiny” but then use biological gender to define exactly what men and women are allowed and not allowed to do. We of course have the intersexed to prove that not all humans are born either male or female, but even a look at the variety of personality types and talents among the truly biologically male or female shows how misguided this thinking is. I don’t deny differences between the genders, in aggregate, but those differences tell us nothing about an individual’s personality or talents. We all know women who are stronger, taller, and better in math than the average man, just as we all know men who are nuturing, cooperative (as opposed to aggressive) and good cooks - no matter what their orientations.
The real tragedy here is that this kind of “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” thinking limits the potential of so many people, and again not just gays and lesbians. I have to believe that men and women raised believing in this kind of rigid dichotomy find it much harder to live up to the fullest of their own potential, as certain careers, hobbies, even emotions become off-limits.
After thinking about G’s comments, and the nature of the post, I thought it would be useful to state that people of faith can be often categorized by their reasoning process, when they are forced into a difficult position. Their basic assumptions of the foundation of their faith could then possibly be listed as:
- Bible-based: rely on the scriptures of the Bible;
- Pastoral-based: rely on the sayings of their pastor, vicar, religious leader, pope;
- Revelation-based: rely on what God showed to them personally;
- History-based: rely on the past historical positions of the church;
- Evidence-based: rely on evidence (e.g., archeological, demographic, etc.);
- Desperation-based: rely on nearest floating object.
As people move through life passages, they may shift from one base of reasoning to another. Some people abandon their faith in Christ altogether; others move painfully from one base of reasoning to another. Some hold strongest to one basis, but still minor in another basis.
Two examples:
- I noticed that many of Peter O’s statements were Revelation-based, as are many of my Charismatic acquaintances. While they are perhaps worlds-apart in their doctrine, they are nearly identical in their reasoning basis. I watched several Evidence-based commenters reply to Peter O with solid evidence and well-built logic… but Peter views all evidence through a different basis, and so, appeared to evade the discussion multiple times.
- Anthony Falz. visited here for a time. I assumed he was Bible-based, and questioned one scripture he had partially quoted. He never answered. I then assumed he was Pastoral-based, since some of his thoughts were Exclusionary Christianity and Political (the Dobsonian view)… but wrong again… then Revelation-based, but his comments were too acidic and emotional…like someone drowning…. Then I got it, Anthony is Desperation-based. No wonder he slashed at anyone that tried to deny him the life-rope of a few partial bible verses intertwined with views of who was ‘apostate’ and who was not.
In shortest answer to G. — Pastoral-based reasoning, combined with Exclusionary and Political views, can indeed lead to religious or cultural wars. But that is one narrow view within one type of reasoning. It is not all of Christianity. “I am of Paul!” is a quote within the Bible… of a very immature group of believers long ago that held to Pastoral-based reasoning.
I think then that the New Warrior’s group may appeal to those that currently major in Desperation-based reasoning, and have no other life-rope to reach out towards. If the person minored in Evidence-based or Revelation-based reasoning, then a scant bit of anecdotal evidence or ‘god confirmed this to me’ may assist in the appeal to attend.
Oh, and in my opinion, the best time to teach a man to swim is before the boat sinks. Sadly, as my church-raised spouse has pointed out, most churches do not teach ‘how’ to reason through the tough times. Many believers in Christ become desperate as their world ‘sinks’ before their eyes.
A thought:
Ex-gay ministries often argue that even should orientation be found to be inborn, we should not let it dictate our lives.
Yet those who favor this sort of exercise do seem to think that gender should dictate a great deal about us.
In fairness to The Mankind Project:
It does not market itself as an ex-gay program or endorse reparative therapy. It welcomes gay men. And it sounds like a potentially great experience for people who possess self-esteem, who aren’t depressed, who don’t reflexively hate or fear their potential for various forms of same-gender sexual expression, and who are savvy enough to distinguish between a harmless gender-role game and a serious case of hazing, coercion, abuse, or detention.
I myself might enjoy such a program — but this same program might have done terrible damage when I was 18 to 25 years old and extremely unconfident and uncertain about myself, my values, my rights and my safety.
I believe this sort of program requires a robust screening process for both participants and leaders. Such programs must demonstrate accountability and transparency. And if they market themselves as a cure for emotional wounds, then they should submit themselves to monitoring by mental-health professionals. Unfortunately, some of these controls seem to be lacking in the MKP.
Situations in which leaders operate in secret are ripe for abuse, injury, or death. And in an increasingly laissez-faire U.S. society where government is too poorly funded to perform regulation — caveat emptor.
We still haven’t established why JONAH or NARTH would endorse this sexual program or have anything remotely to do with it.
With all due respect, Mike, I have to disagree at this point. I’m not sure if you have more evidence that I haven’t yet seen, but what I am finding gives me great cause for concern, gay or ex-gay. That reparative therapists are recommending these programs only makes it worse, but until more is uncovered through discovery in the Texas trial, I think it irresponsible to make such a statement as “potentially great experience.”
Would we ever let Cohen get away with recommending that a client go out in the woods, hold a wooden phallus and talk about sexual experiences with a group of other guys (literally called “passing the cock”)? And so far the only explanation I have gotten for my doubt of this as a valid therapeutic exercise is that I haven’t tried it!
Those claiming harm are dismissed, the entire process is secretive, and no one has to prove the value or efficacy of anything beyond saying that those who like it or are involved in the organizations, say they have been helped. Doesn’t this sound familiar?
Note: This comment was made in response to Mikes first version of his comment quoted within. While admins have the ability to edit comments after submitting them, it is discouraged.
Because the program claims to encourage deeper trust and relationships among men. Nicolosi and JONAH work on the assumption that homosexuality stems directly from a distrust of men. If they believe this is being done in a non-sexual environment, they have a perfect adjunct to their reparative therapy.
I’ve been show a statement in which MKP denounces such a connection, but I had to ask for it, and even then it’s not that clear to me. I didn’t receive approval to post it, but apparently Throckmorton did.
I spelled out the conditions under which MKP could be a great program — but as we and others have pointed out, MKP may not be honoring those conditions.
As for XGW hypothetically letting Cohen endorse a same-sex sexual ceremony, I personally would have no problem with Cohen doing that if he honestly affirmed such same-sex activity and met my other conditions for an accountable and transparent program.
Cohen and NARTH commit hypocrisy by simultaneously encouraging and discouraging same-sex activity. They commit harm by refusing to be accountable and transparent, to screen participants, and to establish professional oversight.
I think XGW’s focus needs to remain on the ex-gay movement’s endorsement and participation in such programs, and the programs’ obscure claims that might (intentionally or not) appeal to ex-gays. Also, why is Throckmorton diverting attention from JONAH and NARTH, and from Exodus and FOTF’s referrals to JONAH and NARTH?
XGW can’t possibly police every wayward organization in the world directly, but we can police programs that directly involve ex-gays.
Mike - I am not following your comment about how I am diverting attention from JONAH, NARTH, Exodus, etc. In my original post on this topic, I noted that NARTH and Richard Cohen referred to this group. And I recently posted a link to your post with Alan’s letter noting that Exodus does not refer to Mr. Cohen. Also, I am aware that Exodus does not refer to MKP and NWTA, and I believe they do not refer to Journey into Manhood either.
My interest is primarily in the ex-gay aspect to the story and especially the irony of reparative therapists such as Richard Cohen referring to what appears to be a gay friendly program. The reparative drive theorists predict that increasing one’s sense of masculinity will decrease same-sex attraction. If anything, wacky stuff aside, the predictions apparently do not hold up in a general sense (meaning it certainly doesn’t work for all SSA men, given the existance of gay warrior brothers).
Warren,
Similar to you, I’m struck at the irony of RT therapists recommending a program that, if anything, affirms and reinforces same-gender sexual desire.
You did cite the JONAH-NARTH connections early on — many thanks — but from my perspective you seemed to lose interest, at least somewhat, as you got deeper into investigating MKP/NWTA. Perhaps that’s just due to the inability to focus on many facets of the story at once.
As for Exodus and Focus, I’ve seen no effort by Exodus or Focus to establish the facts, nor to obtain a public commitment from JONAH and NARTH to repudiate this form of ex-gay therapy. Whatever they might be doing in secret, Exodus and Focus seem less than accountable or transparent in their handling of referrals.
Mike - I indeed have become interested in NWTA as a social phenomenon in addition to the ex-gay connection. So I might pursue a few more rabbit trails out of sheer interest in how people perceive harm and benefit from the experience.
As for Jonah, here is a reference to the NWTA from their website:
As for FOTF, I can find no evidence that NWTA is anywhere on their radar screen.
The ManKind Project routinely hosts all-gay initiation weekends that affirm gay men and their sexuality — and without any sexual activity. That article is filled with a lot of bulls__t passing itself off as fact. The organization has a wide gay membership, and even took a stand recently where it officially stated that it does not endorse ex-gay therapy. It also goes out of its way to be mindful of boundaries; physical, sexual, and otherwise. The ritual and initiation work is no different than what has been going on in men’s groups since when the new men’s movement began in the 1980s. That the editors of exgaywatch (and their readers) are shocked, shocked! by processwork involving nudity (I guess they never heard of Esalen) is nothing less than outright laughable.
Rick, I don’t know where you got the idea that nudity was the problem here, but it wasn’t from the post. Do you think anything done in those outings is appropriate to change sexual orientation?
And since you brought it up, I am curious about something. We can be reasonably sure that the majority of therapists do not sexually assault their clients. However, it certainly does happen and others often facilitate the secrecy surrounding it when it does. How can any one person be so certain, without any investigation, that what the Houston Press reported is not accurate for some, even one of these groups?
There is a wrongful death suit in progress, I would hope that anyone involved in the MKP or similar organizations would want to make darn certain they know of any problem groups, and not simply state emphatically and defensively that all is well.
Our scope is mainly in dealing with the ex-gay referrals to these groups, but while researching that I have become disturbed by attitudes like this, and those who are very scared to speak about past experiences from their own attendance.
So how long do y’all figure before we see a Peter Labarbera undercover expose of this organization?
I don’t know, but I’m sure it will invoke a lot of superlatives and exaggerations, all in the name of research, of course.
Perhaps he is just trying to figure out how to sneak his camera into the nude sessions
Re: David Roberts: “How can any one person be so certain, without any investigation, that what the Houston Press reported is not accurate for some, even one of these groups?”
Because I have a long-standing history with MKP, I know the guys in Houston, and I know from direct experience that inappropriate behavior DOES NOT GO ON. The men who come to the weekend bring all sorts of painful wounds — including sexual abuse traumas — it would be insane for any of us in MKP to pile on additional traumas on top of that. I myself am a survivor of sexual abuse perpetuated upon me by a psychoanalyst in my adolescence, and as an adult have worked in mental health. I know about professional boundaries. Besides MKP I have a long involvement with 12-step and other recovery-from-dysfunctional childhood support groups. If MKP were perpetuating abuse, I could identify it immediately and would denounce the organization hither and yon.
The editors of exgaywatch highlighted everything from the article that had to do with nudity and being naked, as if they assumed their readers were prudish Victorians (I guess their heads would explode if they went to a Radical Faerie gathering).
Chris Vogel, the author of the piece, cherry-picked facts and sources, then mixed it in with half-truths and outright lies and is peddling it as legitimate journalism. This is how the McMartin “Satanic ritual abuse” hysteria of the 1980’s turned into the unstoppable wildfire that it did. Of course the children are now 30-something adults who have come forward and said that everyone was lying back then, including them.
La plus ça change, la plus c’est la même chose
Rick, please follow more closely. Pam highlighted these issues because of the point her post illustrates; reparative therapists sending those distraught over their homosexuality into a group of men who take their clothes off, handle a large wooden phallus and talk about sex. And all this in the name of changing them from gay to straight (that is the RT’s intent). Now try to get past the shallow Victorian pot-shots at us and focus on that. Nudity per se is certainly not the issue.
So back to the question, Do you think anything done in those outings is appropriate to change sexual orientation?
There is no comparison to the McMartin case. Those witnesses were very young, coached children and there wasn’t any evidence. Certainly you must admit that at least the first four bulleted items in the post are accurate.
If you get something out of these meetings, I’m thrilled. That’s a non-issue. But please separate that from the issue here - they are two different things.
Guess what, David? There are a substantial number of guys who claim that the MKP weekend helped them with their SSA issues. There are also a substantial number who claim that MKP helped them in the coming out and self-acceptance process. It is difficult to get past the Victorian pot-shots when you and Pam make it seem like the entire weekend is all about getting naked and handling a phallus. That is clearly what you and Pam think. The McMartin analogy is appropriate because that also involved media-driven hysteria.
The MKP weekend (the NWTA) is about accessing and honoring what Robert Bly one’s “deep masculine” and regaining (or some cases simply gaining) one’s confidence as a man, one’s inner warrior. Stuff which modern-day Victorians will never understand, much less appreciate.
Perhaps, but I do recognize and evasive answer when I see it.
I completely agree with Rick.
Pam’s article has the flavor of an Enquiror article written for shock value skewing facts before finding them. It is totally fixated on the part of MKP that focuses on body issues. The phallic symbol passed around is nothing more than to make men lighten up and get more comfortable about talking about their body issues.
For G-d’s sake this is like taking issue with the Vagina Monologues and is only one hour of a fraternal weekend that offers so much more.
There is not, never has been, never will be anything that is forced, inappropriate, or deemed unethical at these weekends. You are completely at choice at MKP, can pass on any exercise, leave whenever you want and not be harrassed or stopped.
These are *not* therapy, psychology or psychiatric weekends. They are psycho-educational only to instruct and offer self-help.
There are trained professionals in psychodrama work. You do not have to be a psychotherapist to be trained in psychodrama and provide weekend workshops.
This is true about any workshops including Landmark, Esalen, The Millionaire Mind, Body Electric, Radical Fairies and others.
I hope exgaywatch will not let reparative therapists and exgays spoil the goodness, richness and beauty of a men’s forum that saves men’s lives and relationships.
Responsible journalism is about collecting all the facts and then determining from them what is really happening. This article is not responsible in my judgment.
One thing I think exgaywatch is completely missing that MKP provides is a forum for men of all orientations to come together in their differences without being divisive.
Why is it so hard to consider the concept that USSA’s, SSA’s, gays, exgays, ex-exgays, quesioning, and whoever can come together and get different things out of the same weekend workshop.
I hope exgaywatch will not allow Cohen, Throckmorton, NARTH and any other USSA therapist/therapies to cloud the judgment of what MKP truly is about.
It isn’t about who refers to these weekends it is about what happens on these weekends and the profoundly positive results it has had for men of all orientations all over the world!
To Mike Airhart:
You wrote:
___________________________________________________________
“I myself might enjoy such a program — but this same program might have done terrible damage when I was 18 to 25 years old and extremely unconfident and uncertain about myself, my values, my rights and my safety”.
________________________________________________________
I am not sure how you think the MKP would have done this to you at that time in your life? There is no agenda for any man going in other than what he wants for himself.
I wonder programs like Body Electric, programs at Esalen, Landmakr are not given the same scrutiny that exgaywatch is giving to MKP.
It this hype about MKP is mainly because reparative groups and therapist refer to it, why not explore their motives? Why aren’t the answers given by Rick, myself, and Carl the executive director of MKP enough? What will be enough?
I honestly hope that some or all of the exgaywatch men might consider attending an MKP weekend and see for yourself rather than relying on heresay as that is all you will get no matter who you talk to.
Warmly, Joe Kort
Joe, how is what you have just said any different that what we would get from Nicolosi, or Cohen, etc, about reparative therapy? How can we maintain a standard of proof from them, and not apply it to MKP?
We have you, Rick and possible a few others rushing in to profess the nearly miraculous wonders of MKP, while others contact us literally frightened that someone in that group might find out they have broken confidence to share what happened to them.
The way this has escalated, I have to ask you; are you paid by MKP or related organizations? Do you join these people you refer in these weekends, participating in the same activities?
This actually sounds like fun… dont get the purpose of things like beating the chicken with a hammer but im sure it might turn to be quite interesting.
According to whats been said…
I dont see why there should be such rigourous standards for this… i mean, they come and go at their own free will. Theres no coercision, no forced, no religious, no political or social influence/power acting for or around this. Ppl already know their going to be exposed to things like touching a dildo and prancing around naked, if you dont like it, DONT GO… its not like you need to in order to be on equal footing(unlike those that profess reparative therapy).
This sounds more like a recreational camp then anything else. If I go, I just go for kicks and laughs… and a different perspective on things is never a bad thing i think. But if its to serve a more controversial purpose like in order to be a man i need to do/think or be a certain way… then by all means, scrutinize all you want.
Harm… maybe be more explicit that their going to be touching genitals too, it doesnt get more explicit than that. Unless they also have sex there which apparantly they dont.
No genital touching. Whatsoever. If stuff like that went on, we would not have a variety of men, from blue-ribbon heterosexual married Republican fathers to single bohemian gay men, recommending the MKP weekend.
The stuff involving the chicken occurs after all the serious work in the weekend is essentially over, and is done as a joke, with the explicit obviousness of a Monty Python or Saturday Night Live skit.
Says Pam Ferguson:
“However, red flags are raised soon after by a barrage of yes or no questions phrased in such a way as to make one feel wimpy who dares to answer ‘no’.
* Do you have the courage to face your own fears and insecurities and discover the tremendous power and beauty that lies within you?
* Are you willing to step into the fullness of who you really are?”
Well, I guess if these questions qualify as “red flags” for Pam, then about 99% of all personal growth workshops, programs, and literature in North America must be suspect.
No strong opinion about these programs. Just want to state that I (who post here regularly) am a different ‘Rick’ from the Rick posting above.
David,
I am not paid by MKP. I went through the program in 1999 and it changed my life. I am still gay–probably more gay then when I went in. Imagine that!
You question the escalation? It is you who seems to have an agenda here and have done a poor job in journalism by letting Pam write an article about something she knows nothing about.
The MKP also has “Women Within”. Did you know that? Do you think ex-lesbians attend and tell their ex-lesbian friends? My gosh I don’t understand the reason you are so skeptical other than your reactivity around exgays which is where your attention should be.
The majority of men who attend do it voluntarily from their hearts.
What makes me different than Cohen and Nicolosi??? I don’t tell men it will make them gay, straight, transgender, or anything of the sort. I tell men it is a self-help program to assist them in creating a more mature masculine involving integrity, honor and respect for other men and allowing other men to be different and living they lives “they” want to live.
Again, David, it is your judgment that men are frightened to talk. This is outrageous. No one is bullied or frightened. They are standing by confidentiality protecting a program that has the highest standards and integrity.
David, why don’t you start asking around to those who have attended the Millionaire Mind and Landmark and see how open they are with the step by step process. They won’t be. Like any other workshop, the mystery of what happens is part of the fun. You ruin the weekend otherwise.
Instead of targeting MKP, you should be targeting NARTH and the others for recommending the weekend as a way of changing orientation.
MKP has already shown you they do not use the program to help those who want change.
I don’t understand, again, why you are not listening to that or responding to the explanations I have given and that Rick on this blog has provided.
Also, for years now MKP has sponsored all gay/bisexual men’s weekends with some straight men helping. They don’t have all USSA weekend workshops.
Doesn’t that say anything to you?
This is exactly what exgays want—controversy, trouble and divisiveness.
MKP does not have ties with exgay groups that is what I have been saying all along as well as has their statement. MKP can’t control what NARTH and others put on their sites. I put it on my site and in my second book and endorse it. What you are saying is like the Christian right saying that MKP has ties to gays and it should be stopped and using my work as proof.
MKP doesn’t endorse anything but helping men become better men—for those who choose to attend their weekend.
This whole thing reminds me of Jerry Falwell and other anti-gay bigots who take a snapshot of something that goes on among gay men and say, “See all gay men are bug chasing, drug taking, promiscous sinners!”
And we all know that some gay men are as some straight and bisexual men are. But they are not all like this.
David, I hope you will respond to the answers given by both Rick, myself and the others in favor of MKP in terms of the all gay weekends and the lack of USSA weekends and all the other explanations you call “vague”. You have not responded to them hardly at all on this blog. Why?
Warmly, Joe
Rick,
The red flag is not in the questions themselves…all excellent questions. For me, it was in the way they are phrased to make it sound like any man who doesn’t go to New Warriors isn’t man enough to answer those questions. I said in the psot it was the phrasing, not the questions themselves. That was my intent.
As to your assertion that some men say the training “helps” them with their SSA. This is the ENTIRE concern I have with the retreat. It really means nothing to me that some men say this is helpful to their SSA. (what does “helpful” even mean for them?) My ex-husband went to a manhood retreat put on by his therapist (who has now been convicted of molestation) and I’ll be blunt and tell you that when he returned, at the time, it did seem to “help” him towards being interested in sexual relations with me. On reflection, it seems maybe it gave him a strong need to get some sexual release.
It’s difficult for me to understand how you can use the assertation (that these retreats help ssa men) in any way at all to justify (if that’s what you’re doing) New Warriors as an appropriate prescription for ssa men. The basic tenants of New Warriors(certainly as it pertains to gay men) and Reparative Therapists concerning manhood are fundamentally at odds.
Here are my questions (for the moment) for MKP:
Did one or more of its NWTA programs accept referrals from ex-gay organizations or accept registrations from people who identified themselves as struggling against same-sex attraction?
Do any of its NWTA programs engage in boot-camp-style hazing, verbal and physical abuse, and involuntary detention as described by the Houston Press, and if they do, is this disclosed in advance of registration?
Are applicants rejected if their medical questionnaire indicates emotional and mental instability, drug/alcohol problems, or past sexual abuse?
Here is my question for JONAH and NARTH:
Why do your web sites promote programs to ex-gay strugglers that utilize hazing, detention, and sexualized activities with people of the same gender?
Here’s just one example of the hazing and detention, which I find indefensible when it’s done to people who (like Michael Scinto) had demonstrated emotional instability and alcohol problems.
From the Houston Press:
It’s that sort of abuse that could have seriously wounded me when I was a young adult.
That is the thing there is no abuse that occurs on the weekend. Everyone is dealt with the utmost respect.
Warmly, Joe
Here’s more.
After investigating their son’s death and the organization’s internal documents:
The MKP clearly has the best of intentions, and I’m all in favor of voluntary recreational masculinity/spirituality retreats for men. But I’m sorry, if the Houston Press article is accurate, then it appears that the NWTA is not a voluntary or recreational retreat. There is nothing “poetic” about verbal abuse, threats, and detention.
And still more from Houston Press:
And more:
If the NWTA practiced full disclosure; accepted liability; refrained from any abuse, coercion or detention; rejected weak applicants; and ensured that all activities were monitored by trained professionals…
If all that happened, then they would meet the same standards that we already expect of ex-gay programs.
This is basically the official position of XGW.
I hate that it has to come to this, but Mike Airhart and Pam Ferguson are responding to the Houston Press articl