NARTH Advisor James Phelan Brags of Beating Pro-Gay Man
In a rather self-congratulatory post to his personal blog, James Phelan claims to have picked a fight with a pro-gay man* during a recent public event.
They had several huge rainbow banners all lined up, seen for yards and yards away. As I passed the group, I yelled over that, in my opinion, they were there just to “push their gay agenda”. My opinion was they were using the large public event (which had nothing to do with homosexuality) to pollute it with gay politics. Well, one runner, a huge muscled-type, didn’t like me doing this and thought he’d teach me a lesson, unexpectedly shoved the heck out of me practically knocking me to the pavement, an act of violence and physical attack against my person. Of course, little did the fool know I was a trained fighter having served in an elite force of the US Army. So, I one-two drop kicked the hell out of him and got into a immediate fighter’s stance ready to take more of him. Naturally, the coward backed down and ran away.
Phelan is a member of the Scientific Advisory Committee of the National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) and a scheduled speaker at their upcoming annual conference. He is also a member of Exodus, and PATH, and is “certified as a sexual re-orientation coach” by the International Healing Foundation (Richard Cohen) . He is also co-president of Transforming Congregations ministry and a prolific contributing author for Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality (JONAH). He claims to be a Christian and wants to help gay people, saying he can identify with their struggles. From this it appears he is also quite a bully, and may have some deep issues of his own to resolve.
If all this happened as Phelan claims — and like other recent events we have no real proof that it did — then certainly the other person should not have become physical in response to Phelan’s heckling. However, one must question the motives of a man who claims to be a psychiatric professional and yet apparently spends his free time baiting gay people so he can become physically violent “with the fool” and “drop kick the hell out of him.”
We are waiting for a promised response from Exodus, but sincerely call on NARTH, PATH, Richard Cohen, JONAH and Karen Booth to distance themselves and their organizations from Phelan. At the very least, his clients should know about his issues and the prospect of abuse.
Update: Alan Chambers has commented on Phelan’s post here. We are still waiting for his official statement.
* (6.54pm ET): Mr. Phelan has not responded to our requests for clarification, but in a comment reply on his own blog about an hour ago he said that he didn’t know the sexual orientation of the man with whom he fought. His original account clearly implies that the man was gay, however since this all seems a bit confusing we are contacting the gay organizations represented in the marathon and will ask each one just what happened, including any information available on the man in question. Anything we find will appear in a new post and linked here.
SharonB – I generally agree with you on this issue more than Timothy but I can understand his point. If someone has lived heterosexually long enough and convincingly enough to marry and to have a child (presumably without telling their spouse they are struggling with feelings they don’t want) I think it’s rather unfair that now, that they’ve established social ties, brought a new life into the world, perhaps lied to their spouse about their attractions that they should just walk away. They might say it’s not “fair” to ask them to deny themselves any longer, but it’s even less fair to the innocent spouse and child that they were lied to and deceived.
Gay men and women shouldn’t marry the opposite sex merely to keep up appearances, but if they do so I have a lot less sympathy for them when they suddenly want to walk away.
Kendall:
What is you were told by a well meaning but dangerously stupid counselor that marriage would “heal” your brokenness, better yet, children would heal you even more!
What if the spouse knew everything, but believed that marriage would heal….
Problem is, you can’t hide who you are. Submerging and pretending only work so long. You can only fool yourself so long. What do you do when you come to the end of your denial?
Does anyone really just marry to “keep up appearances?” Isn’t it usually more complicated than that? (I share your distaste for sociopaths, but I think the issue is usually much more complicated.)
Timothy,
I was glad to see you add #3. As for encouraging people who are unmmarried never to get married or those who are married never to have children is too broad. I waited 8 years before getting married and found it to be the best decision and option of my entire life. While we had no plans to wait 7 more years for children, God had other plans. Our story may be the exception, but telling someone that they shouldn’t even consider this option is wrong.
We DEFINITELY agree, however, that marriage should not be entered into blindly or lightly. A prospective spouse must know exactly what they are getting into and the two should go through extensive pre-marital counseling–actually, a good rule for anyone these days. Far too many people see marriage as the cure when it can make things FAR worse for those still struggling with their identity. I don’t encourage anyone to even consider dating for AT LEAST 2 years after their last sexual/emotional/relational encounter.
I know we disagree on many things, but it is nice to see a little common ground from time to time.
I know I’m not the only one, but I have a circle of friends who are in varying stages or expressions of the 3 “options” expressed above. I do not want to describe in detail their specifics but generally they are not happy.
So, to add to these 3 options I want to add another factor…another dimension…to this matrix. Happiness. Specifically: happiness versus acquiesced contentment.
Are you truly happy?
Isn’t there a Biblical quote that goes something like: Man should be happy. ?
Sure, I could say I’m happy. I make the most of my situation(s) and I have only myself to blame for the situation I am in now (single and not rich). I would be whole lot happier with someone to share my life with but I can forego the Porsche and the lodge in Jackson Hole, WY. I am happy but, I could be more happy…err…happier.
Then, I have friends who wail to me about their marriage. They acquiesce at being married (some by peer-pressure and others by direct counseling by their ecclesiastical elders) and they almost all literally say: “I made my bed and will stick it out for the sake of my children”. Is that contentment or happiness?
Are celibate men happy or just contented? Would they be happier if the guilt factor was removed from the matrix.
Most are contented but I’m not sure they’re happy.
I will agree there has to be some truly happy ex-gay marrieds out there but, then, we need to also acknowledge there are a whole lot of same-gender marrieds who are happy too. The debate might be who has more examples of “happy marrieds”. I doubt anyone has really done a scientific study or survey on this.
So, maybe XGW is working for those 3 options as long as we are contented and not necessarily “happy”.
Please understand I have contemplated this concept of contentment versus true happiness for the last couple of days while staring at my ceiling in my bedroom just as I am going to sleep. You know, that time when you can get introspective about your life. Mr. Airhart is at fault for the sleeplessness I am having. ((wink wink))
Maybe Pam F can share her perspective on #3.
I truly do not think it is a sustainable option. It might be a delay tactic (until the kids are of majority/out of school/etc.) but I wonder at the human toll. Very few people are capable of sustaining what essentially amounts to a deception.
“Our story may be the exception…”
If you were as honest, and as modest, in public like that ALL of the time… nobody could care two hoots about you Alan.
But you over-sell. You present yourself, pious claims here otherwise to the exception, as if you are indeed a “typical gay”.
You are not. You never were. You leave your audience ignorant of the fact that you never were gay.
Alas, except for the over-selling… nobody would take any notice of you or Exodus either. Hence, your need to do the the over-selling.
Apart from that — all the “pre-marriage counselling” in the World does not change a person from gay to straight. At very best, such counselling might show people how to behave with dignity and gentleness as they tumble toward divorce.
Knowing, as we do, how unsuccessful Exodus is with producing heterosexual coupling… it seems remarkable you haven’t provided some policy, procedure, or guidelines for divorcing exgay couples.
Don’t care to, right?
More accurately — don’t want to advertise that fact, right?
Open letter to Jim Phelan.
Jim, except for “people like you” — people would not have “unwanted” homosexuality.
1) You are the cause of the harm.
2) People seek you out, to help to cure that harm.
3) But, in fact, you have no cure to that damage.
What does that suggest you should do, to any sensible person?
(clue: start at step 1)
Sharon, my life isn’t a deception. You, like all of us at times, speak of what you do not know.
Grant or Dale, you aren’t gay now. How’s that for a ridiculous response to your ridiculous statement?
Alan — do you need a video, or something? Sorry, no can do. There’s somethings on this Earth we don’t wish to encourage. You wouldn’t know it was us in any case.
Perhaps phone anyone in Melbourne at random, I’m sure they all know about us. Bang away at +61 3 xxxx xxxx. Go wild, big boy.
Which is more that you can offer. Oddly, you draw a complete blank…
Give us a name Alan. Give us a name from your illustrious 6 month career as a Gay(c)… how about a name of those “best friends” who you say stood you up on Easter day…
Memory a bit blurry? — well OK, for a start, give us the name of your 14 year old cousin who you claimed sexually assaulted you when you were 10 years old. I’m sure you must remember his name.
(ps: we know “his name”, or at least we know the names of your cousins. Just want you to declare him, in public, again, if you dare. Check with your Exodus lawyer first… )
Timothy,
You hit a couple of big homeruns with your comments!
j.
Alan:
Very few people are capable at sustaining what for them would be a deception. I speak of what I do know!
YMMV
Sharon, your initial comment seemed to suggest you know my story and my life. Thus, when it comes to saying that living the way I do is deception, you are incorrect.
If that comment was speaking only of your own experience then of course you know. Sorry if I misunderstood.
What is YMMV?
Wow, Grant or Dale or both, you continue to sink to new lows. You disrespect my wife, children and now you speak of things as personal as my childhood sexual abuse.
It is also incredibly frightening to think you have stalked me to the point of knowing the names of all of my cousins—something that would be difficult to find out to say the very least.
If you’re such good researchers then you two should know the names of my friends that stood me up—very easy information compared to the names of my cousins–and the names of those that walked into the bar on that Easter Sunday night.
For that matter, as closely as you two seem to stalk me, you could at least find some folks to interview that would know the names of those that I was once involved with. I don’t even know all of their names.
Go for it. Show the readers how truly intrusive and creepy you two are.
Alan,
I don’t call your life a deception.
But I do wish you were as forthcoming with legislators about the less-than-total transformation as you are with those who you wish to help avoid feeling a failure.
You are honest with strugglers that your attractions need monitoring and that you’ve taken such steps to ensure that you have the support that you need. You have been honest with those who also seek help that your attractions are to a woman and not to women in general.
I commend you on that honesty. And I support your choices and are glad that they give meaning to your life.
However, Alan, if you search your heart I think you will agree that you have not been equally honest and forthcoming in political setting. When you speak before legislators or in the media or when addressing political campaings, you do employ deception. You leave out the struggle and project an image of total victory. Further you deliberately imply – and sometimes state – that other gay people can become completely free from same-sex desires as well.
You, I, and everyone else involved in this great discussion know that this is not accurate, or even true.
And I think that sort of thing can weigh on you as a person and eventually come to defeat your sense of a moral self. Ironically, I believe this constant challenge to your integrity could threaten that which you hold most dear – your identity as not-homosexual, which is tied to your identity as a moral person.
Alan — the old “prove I’m not lying” technique hey?
Right, so you’ve “got” nothing on us — other than we have point blank declared you to be a liar. So you become abusive toward us. Standard operating procedure for you, as far as we have heard.
We, apparently, are just two guys who ask you the awkward questions — questions that you refuse to answer.
Alan — those matters are simply public record. Births, Deaths, Marriages. Nobody needs stalk for that — they are public records for a very good reason. 2 minutes away from anyone with Internet access. Checking public records is not stalking.
But then you expose yourself as a nasty and weak man — apart from you claiming it, we have never disrespected either your wife or children. In fact, we pointedly defended both you two and your decision to adopt when you were attacked by Stephen Bennett, as example. This has nothing to do with them, but why are you are so willing to thrust a woman and children in front of you when you are challenged?
That’s really cowardly of you Alan. Utterly unmanly. You may as well curl in a ball and whimper. Pathetic.
What we have said to you before (many times) is that you should stop lying because you are setting a very bad example for your children. You are a minor a public figure, and some day your children will have no difficulty finding your words on record. And those include your lies about yourself and about others.
Do you imagine your children will respect you when they find those lies? How do you imagine they will respond, or respect you, after finding that out their father has made a career out of lying? You are a very silly man at times.
I’m sorry if you are raising your children otherwise, but the issue of lying has always a big concern in our family. None of us were raised that way. None of the children are.
For the record … you make claims about yourself that appear, on investigation, to be completely unsupported. Either you are lying, or other people are lying.
Now… you have lied to us before. We know that as fact. We therefore assume you will more than ready to lie to us again. A leopard does not change its spots — even if Exodus convinces it that it is a zebra.
Tell everyone the name of that cousin, or admit you were lying.
Name some names, Alan, or admit you are a fraud.
It’s that simple. And it’s long overdue.
Name them.
Timothy,
I can honestly search my heart and say that I am honest when it comes to how I have conducted myself publicly whether with a group of Christians, politicians or gay activists. Do I nuance my message–yes, I am sure I do.
I have learned a lot over the last 6 months about policy issues and have been very careful not to speak about things that I am still researching. Knowing I am opposed to something doesn’t always mean I can or should speak about it.
I have tried to simply share my story and am learning how to be absolute in biblical truth and less absolute when it comes to someone’s story. As we all are, I am a work in progress–that makes some on my so called side of the debate nervous as you have witnessed.
As for attractions, I am clear that my attraction is for my wife. However, it would be a lie to say that I have no attraction to other women—I never struggled with taking that too far, but the truth is that I could. Being married and attracted to my wife’s character, inner beauty and physical beauty has opened me up to the potential for looking at other women in that way. Thankfully, that remains an area that I haven’t had to battle on great occasion—but I am careful to realize the potential.
Grant and Dale,
Can one of you point me to the online document that lists the names of people’s cousins? I can’t honestly think of one of my cousins that shares my last name, thus searching would be tedious and very time consuming. Thus, that would make you guys either obsessed or a stalkers or both. And, how much money are you spending investigating my life? I have tried to find friends from high school and even the online white pages cost money .
As for giving you the name of someone that molested me, sorry, that won’t happen. An underage boy—regardless of his crime—should not be exposed. 25 or more years have passed since that incident and there is absolutely no purpose in me tarnishing the name or family of someone who, to my knowledge, is not involved in criminal behavior. To that end, I do not know the motive for his committing that act—all I know is the result of how it affected me.
Your question is inappropriate and irrational and a smack in the face to any victim of childhood abuse reading this thread.
Your obsession is frightening. Thank God for neighborhood watch and security systems.
Keep commenting, though, it really does tell a lot about you two.
Alan,
One of the greatest tragedies is that the church has convinced itself that “nuancing” – i.e. deliberately providing a false image with the intent of deceiving – is somehow acceptable to God.
Nonetheless, I welcome any efforts you make in the direction of full disclosure. And while I welcome the evolution of character, it can make it difficult at times to measure evolving honesty.
If the claims of “hundreds of thousands just like me” disappear, I may err in assuming that they are still being made. If claims about what certain legislation says or will do – that have no basis whatsoever in reality or truth – are no longer being made, I may not be aware that they have ceased. So while I celebrate improvement, please forgive me for assumptions based on prior behavior.
And I encourage you to continue to measure your “nuanced message” to politicians against God’s requirement that our yeas be yea and our nays be nay. If you make a claim about ENDA, for example, that leads others to believe something that isn’t factual or honest, I believe that it compromises your soul. It eats at your integrity.
Even if a statement is couched in such a way as not to be an outright lie, deception is not in the toolbox of God.
Alan Chambers protects the identity of a child molestor
Excuse me Allan — why you protecting the identity of a (claimed) child molestor??? Too long ago, might be embarrassing…
Wow.
Is this a legitimate excuse for others, or just for you?
(You know what the law is in Florida, right?)
Alan, you are a piece of work. Apparently we are bad people for asking you to name to person who (you claimed) molested you.
What do you imagine the person who most closely resembles your “cousin” would say — about you, about your claim, and on public record? Would a stat.dec. suffice???
Again — Alan, name them. Or admit you made this lie up 15 years ago.
Your refusal to be open and honest tells a lot about you — you cannot be trusted.
Grant and Dale,
I am finished with this conversation. Your line of questioning is like a rape that will not end.
You are both barbaric in your tactics and could not have been more offensive or incorrect.
yep — ended. He thinks.
Alan Chambers is now to be known as a self confessed protector of a child molester. Remember that fact.
His “history” — as an abused child etc etc etc — remains unproven. He refused to provide evidence, even after being directly asked to do so.
Alan, lying about who you are for 35 years doesn’t make you an expert… about gayness.
It just makes you a (pathological) liar.
You cannot name anyone for one simple fact — you have made all this up. You are a fraud. You do not want anyone to be able to easily check on your history, because there is none.
Your Mum and Dad must be real proud of you… ours would be ashamed.
I feel like I have just witnessed an assault and I don’t know who to call.
Ironic, the post where this takes place.
I’ve not always been overly kind to Alan. I think I said he was a snake-oil salesman/hustler once (or twice…LOL). I’ve also usually enjoyed the well thought-out comments that often come from grantdale. They often provide their own brand of humor that makes me think I’m hearing two voices say the same thing (ok…maybe that’s just me and I’m a little crazy…LOL).
Having said that, I’m a little bit uncomfortable with your comments regarding Alan here. What’s the point? It’s obvious you don’t believe Alan’s story. I don’t have a problem with that. But, I get the impression that you kind of feel that if you badger him hard enough, he’ll throw his hands up like the Mary you think he is and in hysterics say “you got me, I lied a long time ago!” I mean come on, it ain’t gonna happen (the confession that is).
Not that I carry any weight around here…I’m just a guy who shows up once in a while and comments. But, I think you do more damage to your rep that to Alans following this particular line. It appears you’ve got a lot of anger directed at Alan. Maybe he deserves it, but is there a better way of releasing it?
j.
What is going on here? Grantdale, you must know this is way over the line for a civil discussion, and if you were based in the US, probably close to evidence of criminal stalking. I’m upset because neither of you are irresponsible, hit and run commenters, and so you know better.
This is a community, and considering the respect I have for both of you, I think it necessary that you issue an apology to Alan and those reading for these recent comments. This is violence, and smacks of the same kind of bullying we see from Phelan in the original post.
Those with your considerable knowledge and reason should not have to stoop to such tactics in order to make a valid point, and I hope you know there is no way we can allow it to continue here.
Yes, okay, David.
Interesting dialogue happening here folks…
I’m unaware if this subject has ever been approached here or anywhere else, so here goes…
If there’s truly hundreds of thousands of ex-gays in America now happily living a straight life by getting married, having children, or even being celibate etc as Exodus, PFOX, etc proudly proclaims there are. Well then, it’s time to organize an Ex-Gay March in Washington! All these hundreds of thousands ex-gays should want to join together for a huge public proclamation of their cause and proudly show the world that they have been set free! Similar to the Million Man March, Civil Rights Marches of the ‘60s, Million Mom March and all the hundreds of other groups throughout history that have shown their cause in public on the national mall or streets of our nation’s Capital, Washington, DC.
It’s long overdue!
So then why isn’t this just nuance?
Because Salzer is a psychiatrist who is looked at as an expert in research on mental health and it is statement made by that expert in a public forum. Things would have been better for her if she had given a nuanced answer.
This was a fascinating thread. I didn’t find it until today. I have to agree with David that the line of questioning being directed at Alan made me very uncomfortable, even if the posters felt they had a sincere and valid point.
Mr. Phelan is someone I never heard of, but his self-congratulatory post was nothing compared to his breathless follow-ups. At some point, if he’s an intelligent man, he’s going to realize he kinda lost it. We all do. I call my alterna-aggressive other half “Loud Steve.” Everyone hates Loud Steve. (Except me).
Alan, I also commend you for making a statement. Contrary to Mr. Phelan’s feelings that it was “divisive,” I felt it humanized both of you. United fronts are so boring and corporate. And political.
As for the three options that XGW proposes a person can choose, I find them to be just a rational list devoid of commentary. And even though it’s premised on the belief that sexual orientation cannot (or almost never cannot) be changed, it still says, “Hey. You wanna live in a hetero relationship? Go for it. But don’t lie to yourself or to your upcoming spouse about what kind of marriage it’s going to be.”
I just hope that if someone feels very lonely as a gay person that they don’t assume choosing 1 or 3 will be an automatic cure for that loneliness.
Thanks, guys, for your support. [grantdale's] attack was unwarranted and violent.
So, [grantdale], I am waiting for you to do what David asked you to do. Apologize and show that you are a good uncle.
Moderator Note: Post was edited to remove full names disclosed without permission.
Hey Alan, don’t waste the support and good feelings that you just engendered on this board. You were classy re: the Phelan debacle, and again classy when attacked rather repulsively by grantdale (whose comments I usually enjoy). Don’t start acting like a grade-schooler now – to continue yor run of impressing a lefty, unrepentant lesbian like myself, you should show a little grace and quietly drop the subject.
The first sentence of your last post was fine. The second was stooping to their level.
You are right, Rose. I did stoop. I apologize to Grant and others.
I wonder how many of those complaints one might legitimately file concerning the folks at NARTH? Aren’t some of them psychiatrists? Don’t they often make statements of fact which no real science supports? This is not to say that Salzer should do this, but only to put the official complaint into perspective.
Alan: I noticed that you’ve not replied to my queries on scriptural defensibility in other threads. My question here is therefore not concerning the Bible, but concerning consistency of reason:
You apparently concur with #1, #2, and #3 above. Yet, an article entitled, “What Does Healing Look Like?” by Heather Scaife on your Exodus website, implies endorsement of a fourth option: seeking healing continuously until death.
http://exodus.to/content/view/104/55/
Could you clarify or expand on that apparent #4, please? Sincerely; Caryn
David – How many? Probably quite a few. And if they say science shows us that 96% (or some such number) of people can happily and easily change orientation, then I say go for it.
Alan, I was most impressed with the fact that you applied a very aggressive standard of non-violence and turning the other cheek.
Random: Do you think the people who run XGW have the personal integrity to be an honest broker in an ongoing dialog between our little camps?
Fair enough Dr., but it’s not so much about her as it is about Mr. Chambers and Exodus making any kind of an “Ethics complaint” at all. Especially when it comes to the misrepresentation of numbers, or the “nuancing” of numbers as it were.
Steve,
Thanks. Do I think people at XGW have the personal integrity to be honest brokers of ongoing dialog….I think so. I don’t know everyone who writes here but there are a few that I genuinely respect and believe to be honest in their attempt to communicate. We disagree on many things, but I find there is a developing bridge towards healthy debate.
Is that what you meant?
Caryn,
Seeking change until death in my opinion is a valid option. I think people who struggle with unwanted same sex attractions can become too focused on their struggles and lose sight of Who it is they are trying to serve. There are plenty of people that never experience radical shifts in their attractions but desire to honor biblical standards. Those folks may continue to pray for and strive towards a change in their attractions, which is commendable.
The following excerpt from the recent Christianity Today article might be helpful here:
Let me know if that answers your question. Sorry if I missed others you posted. I am a notorious skim reader.
Alan, yes. That’s what I meant. And I agree with you.
Alan: continuing with my concern then, for consistency of reason:
In the posts above, you appear to concur with #1, #2, and #3 above. Yet, in your Exodus website “Policy Statement” section concerning “Healing”, your organization posts the following:
“Exodus affirms reorientation of same sex attraction is possible. This is a process, which begins with motivation to, and self-determination to change based upon a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. We facilitate resources for this process through our member ministries, other established networks and the Church. The key outcome of this is measured by a growing capacity to turn away from temptations, a reconciling of ones identity with Jesus Christ, being transformed into His image.
This enables growth towards Godly heterosexuality. Exodus recognizes that a lifelong and healthy marriage as well as a Godly single life are good indicators of this transformation.”
Shouldn’t the last two sentences of the above quote be more accurately written? Perhaps as follows:
“This process enables growth towards (1) celibacy or (2) a heterosexual lifestyle with possible homosexual temptations. Exodus recognizes that a lifelong and healthy heterosexual marriage requires much counsel, honesty, and commitment. We also recognize that (3) some individuals will choose to accept their same sex attractions and urge them to live responsibly.”
You’ll notice that I selected to define the previous term “Godly heterosexuality” more in keeping with this thread’s discussion. I also removed the concept of “indicators”, which some readers may take to mean “goals” or “objectives” by mistake. Lastly, I added the third option.
Your comments would be most appreciated. Sincerely; Caryn
Alan: “skim reading” is quite acceptable. Last I checked, it is not listed among the “seven sins that God hates”. I am normally a reader of Ex Gay Watch every few days… which makes my comments appear quite ‘slow’ in this very fast environment. Thank you for your response and if it was an apology, it is absolutely accepted. Sincerely; Caryn
Warren Throckmorton wrote:
Perhaps Warren can sit down with Salzer and pass on some of his expertise on making nuanced statements.
So apparently it’s only unethical if numerical digits become involved.
The clip makes it seem like they’re saying that every homosexual can become heterosexual, but I know how Haley, like Chambers, parses his words to avoid that. Not to avoid giving the impression that change means becoming heterosexual, but to avoid the impression of INTENTIONALLY giving that impression.
I find it additionally dishonest when the time isn’t taken to clarify that “the opposite of homosexuality ISN’T heterosexuality, it’s holiness.”
Nuanced message of “Change is Possible” = 100% Change is possible from homosexuality to heterosexuality.
-Again and again and again, over and over and over. LWO, Citizenlink, books, TV, radio, et.al — completely morally acceptable to God.
But,
“96% of people cannot change”
COMPLETELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY MORALLY UNACCEPTABLE.
Is this the argument you wish to defend?
Oh. My. God. You people have no shame. Is there an ACTUAL hypocritical oath you have to take?
As if the majority can accurately represent the minority? This is your complaint?
__
Correct me if I’m wrong, but ethically speaking, doesn’t one have to at least understand the concept of honesty itself before complaining that someone else is being irresponsible about it?
__
I refine my message and repeat:
It would seem that the complaint here is that complete, utter, and total Christian dishonesty is better and thus more “ethical” than slight secular inaccuracy.
Am I missing something?
Serious discipleship? Since when did lobbying, speechmaking to straight audiences and showing up on talk shows fall under that category? The rank-and-file in the ex-gay movement may definitely be walking against the tide but the leadership is no different than any individual getting their fifteen minutes of fame by profiting from one’s own story. Let’s at least be honest and admit what we all know, the ex-gay leadership gets paid for it, so why in the name of sanity should I or anyone just sit back and pretend otherwise? Why should I ignore the reality that they have a vested interest in promoting this movement? Why should I believe anything they say at all?
Chippy:
Phelan’s posts are funny.
He wrote ” Sounds like a bunch of silly sissy stuff.”
Then you said, “You couldn’t find a more adult or mature way to put that? Maybe something like, “this is an argument without substance”"
Then he said “Chippy”, could you find a name with more substance?
When looking at these posts together, you can see he implying your name is sissy stuff. Whether or not this is funny is debatable but you totally missed what was going on. This was proven by your very lame story of a dead chipmunk.
As for the “beating” he described at the marathon, I know if I was there, I would’ve kicked both his and the huge muscle guy’s asses because I am the one and only Moon Master.
“little did the fool know I was a trained fighter having served in an elite force of the US Army.”
Idiots who talk like this have NEVER SERVED, they just wish they had.
Let’s see his DD214…
JudgeJudy88, I love you! Alan, you sure are weird, sometimes. Jay, I have two DD 214s. But, such nasty name calling, though. We are now at something like 149 posts (perhaps a record, or close to it), maybe we can let this rest and I can get the last word! He who is last, laughs last.
Ha ha!