Ex-Gay Watch

I completely disagree with this article in that:
- I do not believe in the entity of god or satan,
- The article is designed as an anti-gay propaganda tool.
- The article is based on a false premise that the entity of god rejects his subjects. Rejection is an act of man, and cannot possibly be an act of higher power if such a power existed. There is no proof whatsoever he/she/it does or expects such a thing.
This is blatant bias because Chambers fails to outline other “evils” that this “satan” character is allegedly using people for. To be fair and unbiased, the article would allude to all alleged sins because christians repeatedly spew the “we all sin” line of BS before launching mercilessly into another anti-gay hate speech.
I highly resent being referred to as a tool of a mythical character associated with evil: satan. I do believe however, that there is true evil in this world and it is the sickness of fundamentalist christianity and organized religion in general. I truly wish I did live in a world where the biased crap spread by hate groups such as Exodus were indeed illegal. In fact most of the crap the group pulls, would be correctly interpreted as a hate crime or legitimate human rights complaint in Canada. If Chambers chooses to believe this utter crap and preach it, it is of course his right to do so in the United States, but what I firmly object to is that this stuff is used to further demonize and marginalize gays and lesbians. Daniel, I hope you threw this newsletter in the garbage where it belongs after scanning it.

I’m not alone amongst LGBTs in that I have a wonderful mate I dearly love. He’s the warmest, most generous, caring and nurturing person I’ve ever met. We support each other and make each other happier and more productive. We pay property taxes which pay for the education of children we don’t have. Our happiness and productivity is society’s happiness and productivity. What’s evil is Alan Chamber’s blind opposition to us choosing to be in such relationships. What’s evil is his belief that he has a right to control not just his own life, but ours as well.

Encouraging the fraudulent marriage of exgays to sacrificial women for political purposes is evil. Fomenting hatred of gays to make money from the hatred of gays is evil. Encouraging people to believe gays can completely convert same sex attractions into opposite sex attractions is evil. Claiming they don’t intend that meaning, that what they really mean is complete behavioral change is evil. We are morally free to do whatever we want as long as we don’t hurt anyone else. Blindly opposing any one’s freedom to choose and be with the person they love most is a sin against fairness and hurts all of society. Support equal marriage for same sex couples.

Randi, well said. You definitely put the human touch to this issue and at the end of the day, that is what this is really about. It’s about being human; honest and caring and leading a whole enriched life as we endeavour for ourselves. I am outraged that Chambers claims we are evil, I know, the retort is that it is about “lifestyle” or “behaviour” not people. I don’t believe that for one second because being gay or straight for that matter, is about identity of oneself, not behaviours or lifestyle. One cannot separate identity from the person.

Skemono, I cannot speak for every gay person out there, but from my own experience, and most people I know, we are gay from early childhood, from the moment we can put together a rational thought, we are gay. Are we expected to deny our own physiological make up and somehow become attracted to the opposite sex? This is a battle waged by religion against people, not behaviours or lifestyles as they claim. I am strongly opposed to religious organizations interfering with the issue of gay rights. How in the world can they justify standing in the way of equality when our equality is (a) none of their business, and (b) will not affect them personally one iota. Ex-gays stand up on their phoney holy pedestals claiming to be “cured” and are new found heterosexuals. What a load of bunk, get over it and accept who you are! This whole issue infuriates me, especially since I am totally a non-religious person but, I will continue to oppose it and speak out against it because they are dead wrong.

Skemono – who appointed you judge in place of your god? Would it not be just as valid for me to blindly judge your opposite sex relationship, declare it sinful and wrong, and then battle it as it is for you to do that to me? Your constitution says first and foremost all are created equal. Why do you get to control my life and not vice versa? There have been thousands of religions over the millenia, at best only one of them might be inerrantly correct. The odds are thousands to one against that its yours. If you had been born in Japan or Saudi arabia do you honestly believe you’d have come to choose your particular “judeo-christian” religion as the one true religion anyway? An archaeologist has found a letter by an very early Christian leader mentioning a secret gospel of Mark. That gospel contains lines which show Jesus was gay. Google “secret gospel of Mark” and I’m sure you’ll find it.

Skemono some of us see your satire.

Randi says: Encouraging the fraudulent marriage of exgays to sacrificial women for political purposes is evil.

Thank you SO MUCH for saying this. I often think that they really do hate women and don’t think we have any sex drive at all, or that if we do, it doesn’t matter anyhow.

And Skemono, I think I got the joke, too.

I’m not in any mood for jokes. I was shaking with anger after I read the quote from Alan Chambers. No doubt that is what he wants. Shame that.

Like this is unexpected? We are in shock that Alan would write this?

Of course Alan wrote this. It is his style as one of the EEEEEEEEEElect of God to make this point over and over and over again. And so far the only response he appears to have from his fellow gay Christians is a slobbering and drooling understanding. I feel that in many ways the excesses of Exodus under Alan’s leadership come from the way gay Christians do not confront and challenge him. Instead we get treated to treatises on the need for ‘empathy’.

According to Alan’s own testimony, he never was an adult gay man. Why we should accept him as no longer being gay is beyond me. And why his co-religionists enable him is also beyond me.

Alan increasingly sounds desperate. He also sound’s like SNL’s Church Lady. “Well, isn’t that special. Could it be…SATAN.”

Obviously the Exodus agenda espoused by Chambers is a crusading type of mentality and has nothing to do with the true Gospel of Love that Christ taught anciently. This kind of thinking has been around for hundreds of years in Christianity and many other religious movements.

I highly resent some gay folks (however) stating that all organized religion is evil or bad. That kind of shortsightedness and shallowness (a sort of reactionary anti-organized religion reaction) is extreme in and of itself. It has been my view that balance is the key. Those who are on the far right are dangerous and so are those on the far left as well.

Religion can be a very dangerous thing if it is placed on the wrong hands and it is used in a destructive way. It can also be a very wonderful thing if it is used to bless society and civilizaation at large. It all depends upon the teachings and how those teachings are carried out. Obviously Exodus has an extreme right fear based ministry that has its basis in legalism and fear. They totally ignore the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of GLBT Christians who are devout in their faith in Christ. Exodus would rather deny that fact and pretend that if you are gay you are not Christian and not a happy person. They’re dead wrong and it is sad that they polarize our community and try to divide us. The truth is you can be a gay Christian and be filled with the love and light of Christ. Those of us who are Christian can prove to them that they are dead wrong in the way we live our lives and in the way we love one another as Christ taught. It is our job to silence Exodus not through enacting laws but in creating a safe and loving place for the rising generations (and closeted) of GLBT Christians who want to embrace who they are as well as keep their Christian values.

Benjamin, I do realize that religion has brought good to the world and that many GLBT are christians and I can respect that. I have a lot of respect for the Soulforce organization and the outstanding work that they have done in helping gay christians and their families. People can be gay and christian, nothing wrong with that. That being said, I truly believe that religion, particularly fundamentalism, is responsible for many of the issues our community faces. Stigmatization, shame, rejection are almost always based on outdated religious beliefs. How many gay people have been thrown out of their homes because of the alleged shame brought to their families based on their churches’ teachings? The catholic church is now on a purging campaign to oust gay clergy. Disgusting. There are areas in the world where we are executed based on religious beliefs. I disagree that my statements about religion are reactionary, shallow or short-sighted. My views are based on many years of experience and the fact that I do not believe in god or jesus christ. It is in no way retaliatory or vindictive. There is a lot of evidence of the damage that religion has done and continues to do to our community. I have always felt this way and my non-belief has nothing to do with my being gay. I would be a non-believer, gay or straight.

Benjamin Clark,

I have to agree when you say, “Obviously the Exodus agenda espoused by Chambers is a crusading type of mentality and has nothing to do with the true Gospel of Love that Christ taught anciently.”

Fundies seem to be enamored of that Satan fellow, which lead me to write a letter to the editor for the benefit of the Dayton, TN audience with my own take on what the Devil is up to:

So it goes through human history. The idea that if two people (groups, races, religions) are different, then one must be good, the other bad, has led to more death, destruction and human misery than any other evil scheme the devil could have devised. The devil has neither the power to create nor destroy, but by convincing us to hate those who are different, he can sit back and gleefully watch as we destroy one another.

I go on to give examples of how Christ came to end this divisiveness and end:

By His words and His actions, Jesus left us with one simple message: That we should love God and love one another. But that’s just two ways of saying the same thing! We cannot love God and not love every one of His children.

Only when we follow Christ’s example and treat every person with understanding and respect, despite our differences, can we thwart the devil’s attempt to divide us and become one again with God our creator.

Here’s the full text of my In the Garden of Eden letter.

That being said, I truly believe that religion, particularly fundamentalism, is responsible for many of the issues our community faces.

It is ALL about fundamentalism. Only fundamentalist religious sects, whatever their stripe, forcefully promote the idea that their ideology is alone correct, true, and moral, and that all deviation is a sign of sin and evil. Mainstream, mature religions do not make these claims – and in some ways their lack of narrow-mindedness is responsible for their decline in attendance. When a religion preaches that the truth is difficult to discern and their religious ideology may or may not be correct, people have less reason to follow the faith. But fundamentalist religions, with their black&white take on reality, are often easier to follow – it is much more difficult to live in the real world with its shades of gray.

But that is also the reason that fundamentalism is so frightening – and you can see it in Chambers’ statements. If homosexuality is always wrong, as the fundamentalist view states, then it must be battled. But to do that, one must assume that ALL gay people, by virtue of their being gay(or choosing to be, in the fundamentalist vernacular), are a threat. It takes away the fundamental morality of judging each person as an individual, which is very much evident in the teachings of the rabbi Jesus of Nazareth, and replaces it with the notion that you can pre-judge people based on very limited knowledge of their lives.

Just as the Jews distrusted and disliked the Samaritans for being of the wrong religion, now we have the same irrational distrust and hatred for gay people.

Grant, I almost feel sorry for you!

Some of you may be interested in my blog post about “defensive prejudice” against fundamentalists yesterday.

Reading this blog don’t help it.

I have a theory for an explanation. Or two theories.

First: Chambers is only reflecting the toughening language of religious right. After successful campaigns against gay marriages in several states they can now drop even the pretense of “protecting marriage” and “loving the sinner”. After all James Dobson pays his bills…

Second: What if he is not talking about gays in general at all? What if he is actually talking to himself. That he personally has to win the “satan within” i.e. he is finally realizing that no change has never happened and most likely will never happen. That this is about him finally facing the fact that he is gay. And that must make him very anxious, after all his whole identity (not to talk about his livelihood) is based on a lie. How to come out as a gay man after all he’s done.

Skemono, I’m sorry your American humour was too subtle for me and I made the most reasonable assumptions given what I knew – thank God we’re much more secular in Canada. And here I thought I was being so smart by pointing out that your Constitution starts with “all men are created equal”. Nevertheless that phrase was given highest priority in your nations venerated founding documents. (and don’t you forget it
As to the secret gospel of Mark being very possibly fraudulent, so what? The bible itself is very possibly fraudulent, that’s the historical nature of virtually all religions – they can’t all be right. Religious documents carry virtually no scientific weight.

Tim, like me, you have stated that religion in general is evil. Although I often believe that to be true we must avoid vocalizing such blind assumptions or we’re no better than Alan Chambers. Keep in mind what Wayne said – he sounds increasingly desperate. I believe Jim Burroway said increasingly harsh rhetoric is to be expected as its a last resort when people feel they are losing the culture war. Chambers is trying to provoke us. He wants to cause a war because that will validate his fundamentalist religious beliefs in armageddon and his desire to believe all gays are unhappy. Let’s fight fire with a contolled burn. In my above post I did not state chambers himself or religion in general is evil. I stated specific unfair actions and beliefs are evil and I think that’s a fair, measured and apropriate response to a rhetorical declaration of war that does not contain a committment to non-violence.

Dalea says Chambers excesses are caused by gay Christians not challenging him and I agree. If fundamentalists like Chambers want to claim to be fighting evil let them make a committment to fairness, equality and judging each person and their actions specifically – as Christians like Timothy clearly do. It would be a big help if Christians like Timothy and the United Church would jump on Chambers statements and tell him to put fairness first.

Bill – the book Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors by Carl Sagan makes a powerful scientific case that its in our genes to divide ourselves into battling groups based on our differences, such as those between men and women. It is the greatest book I’ve ever read and I although it gets off to a slow technical start it snowballs into the most profound reading I’ve ever savoured. I refer to it as the bible.

CPT_Doom, you really nailed it. Its all about fundamentalism and its committment to rigidity of beliefs over fairness – that’s what I call evil and certainly that’s what’s at the heart of the intractable conflicts we see so often between groups defining themselves in religious terms. As you said the blind push by fundamentalists to paint all gays in the most negative light possible
takes away the fundamental morality of judging each person as an individual as is evidenced in the teachings of Jesus.

Tim, we don’t have to believe the story of Jesus is true to accept it as a good example. Would that fundamentalists like Chambers would as well.

He’s not the only one gang.
I’ve mentioned before, taking the newsletters of Focus on the Family and the Family Research Council and Concerned Women to the Museum of Tolerance for examination.
They are OFFICIALLY a hate group according to the MOT and the SPLC.
The contents of these ANTI GAY group’s information and agenda, is consistent with much of what Nazis had to say about Jews, gypsies and homosexuals.
And since violence and exclusion from even basic education in school is acute for gay people-their speech is not consistent with how RELIGIOUS teaching can be used peacefully in a mixed and mostly secular society such as ours or in Europe.

This teaching earmarks a specific group of people whose ‘sin’ isn’t consistent even with how ALL supposed Scriptural sinners are treated in PUBLIC LAW.
Jews, for example, are a religious culture. They are well within able to integrate and commit to public good and betray no other neighbors.
Yet, Nazis simply pointed a finger and organized a political genocide against them for nothing except being Jewish.
Whatever the Nazis accused the Jews of was myth, misinformation and the exploitation of the economic fears and insecurities of everyday Germans.

Gays and lesbians are similar, at least in being different from heterosexuals as Jews are different from Christians.
But our country is suffering serious economic and social insecurity. We were attacked and thousands died in a single morning here in America on 9/11.
Gays and lesbians are easier to isolate than actual terrorists, so gays and lesbians are propagated and scapegoated as the most urgent danger to this country.
And as it was for Jews in Nazi Germany, this is a patent lie and mischaracterization.
But the only way to isolate gays and lesbians is to do that, then mistreat them.
Because, as my grandfather used to say ‘the hit dog always hollers.’

And gays and lesbians are quite competent at integration and commiting to social good and organizing around accepted norms of PUBLIC behavior that’s also expected of heterosexuals.
That is to say, gays and lesbians don’t have to be treated differently (let alone less well) than heterosexual people.
And aren’t demanding to be treated better.

So yes, any speech that commits gays and lesbians as being less civilized, and not capable of BEING civilized, proposes that society BE less civil to them.

Lies like that are powerful and have been used against other people before.
The fact that Exodus and the other groups mentioned forget this VERY RECENT history is disturbing.
They forget history and the equivilent behavior of radical Muslims. They share the same ideologies and attack the same people and perceive the same enemies.

Chambers is truly insane. Whatever mental sickness he suffered from (drug induced rot?) before he joined Exodus has addled his thinking further.
Pat Robertson follows closely.
Louis Farrahkan too for that matter.

Whoever follows them just doesn’t want to see the cliff….

The Atlanta-Journal Courier reported today that a 37 year old woman married her 15 year old boy lover of two years.
His parents report that the woman is pregnant.

Once again, heterosexual perversity results in a child, and therefore a SERIOUS impact on BOTH the young people at issue here.
Those states that STILL have underage marriage on their books, were swift in banning GAY marriage between adults.

A double murder in Pennsylvania in the last day was prompted by an 18 year old man dating a 14 year old girl. Her parents object and they end up dead.

Now, as for ‘sin’, I find the lack of motivation to censure adulterers or people who divorce many times over or splinter their parental obligations, a far worse blight on children, families and society.
The ‘Defense of Marriage’ amendment was SIGNED by an adulterer.
And the words ‘defense’ and ‘protection’ of marriage rings horrible hollow as marriages fail, domestic abuse and murder and the casual abandonment or abuse of children (and their murders by their own parents) rages.

Where gay people fit into all this.
Heterosexuals have perverted so many aspects of what sin means, what morality means, what human compassion and empathy means…I don’t know how they can continue to claim they are the best custiodians of any of it.

A few points:

“An archaeologist has found a letter by an very early Christian leader mentioning a secret gospel of Mark. That gospel contains lines which show Jesus was gay. Google “secret gospel of Mark” and I’m sure you’ll find it.”

I am reading Lost Scriptures by Bart Ehrman, a compilation of such gospels, and just read the references to the Secret Gospel of Mark. There were many many “gospels” referenced and believed by early church leaders. Very few of them are believed to have been actually written by the “author” but simply claimed to be written by one disciple or another to give the writing authority. Usually they were used to provide support for some theological position or other. There is no reason to believe that the Mark who was a disciple of Jesus ever actually wrote a gospel. Further, the references to it were not clear enough to determine that the author was trying to suggest that Jesus was gay.

But it certainly would be interesting if an actual copy of the Secret Gospel of Mark was actually found and if it could be shown to have been written in the first century. In any case, it is clear that many Christians in the early centuries believed that Jesus and John the Beloved were a couple (see Boswell).

“At the core of it all, this isn’t a battle about whether homosexuality is right or wrong, it is a battle between good and evil.”

One of the themes I often discuss here is the militaristic us-vs.-them mentality of some fundamentalist Christians. Once you view the “other” as being an enemy, you can self-justify all sorts of horrific actions (think inquisition, holocaust, or more recently Abu Ghraib). Alan Chambers is really pushing this “fighting the enemy” rhetoric. Perhaps it lets him sleep thinking that he is trying to take away marriage, education, job protection, bullying protection, and all other forms of equality from “the enemy” rather than from actual gay people.

However, I also caution us from adopting the same mind set. If we start thinking “all Christians” this or “all fundamentalist” that, we will soon be willing to do to them what they seek to do to us. If we think that way, we can justify charging Exodus with hate crimes, simply because they disagree with us. We will self-justify by saying it’s because they do harm or because they preach hate or whatever, but really it’s because they are “the enemy”.

I hope that those who consider going to battle against Exodus will stop and consider whether they want to become Alan Chambers. They and he are not our enemies. Their lies and self-delusions are enemies not only of us but also of thought, civil discourse, and humanity. Lets fight their lies and hatred. As was mentioned above, that is what is truly evil.

Sweet, Timothy, sweet…

What really sticks out to me in Chamber’s statement is his paying lipservice to the “love the sinner” line by saying the devil is controlling gays. What he’s really saying is attack gays with zero consideration or love – as though gays are the devil. So much for “love the” “sinner”.

I think that the LGBQT community will always have to face these issues of relentless attacks upon us, but I think that close minded people will be the end of the world. No matter how much we try show others that we are the same as them, they will not change what they think. I know that not all christians and others religious people think that this is true. Although many might most people would rather just let us do our own thing as long as they dont see it.

Behind that greasy “smile” of Chambers lies a variety of sociopath.

Unlikely. He’s an actor playing a gig. It’s unlikely that he would be able to make an honest living with an honest job, so he chose this one.

Those of you who feel the UCC should take a public stand against Chambers’ latest affirmation of “devil-olatry” might consider actually asking them to do so — politely, of course.

XGW links to some gay-tolerant UCC bloggers and web sites — Chuck Currie for example.

Timothy writes: I hope that those who consider going to battle against Exodus will stop and consider whether they want to become Alan Chambers. They and he are not our enemies. Their lies and self-delusions are enemies not only of us but also of thought, civil discourse, and humanity. Lets fight their lies and hatred. As was mentioned above, that is what is truly evil.

Thank you! I agree with you. And I also think that many (if not most) of the current ex-gays and ex-gay leadership truly do feel they are doing the right thing. And again, I’ll say that many (most?) of them do not make any money off of it. I feel they’re very sincere, but sincerely wrong. While I abhor Alan Chamber’s rhetoric, and am saddened by seeing a side of him that he didn’t seem to either possess or display years ago, he’s still a person, and not my enemy. I often need this reminder. One of the best things I ever learned from a teacher in my Christian background was the idea of “responding in the opposite spirit.” I think sometimes it’s the most powerful response of all.

As I see it, there are the little lies, and then there’s The Big Lie, which is religious fundamentalism itself. I think progressive people spend too much time working on the little lies, like “Change is possible.” or “Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuals,” and we feel like the bigger issue is too dangerous, like we’re going to p**s of too many people if we just say “Religious fundamentalism is nonsense. It’s magical thinking. It’s a dangerous ideology.”

Read the transcript of the Scopes trial, the part where Clarence Darrow put William Jennings Bryan on the witness stand. He put fundamentalism itself on trial. Why aren’t we doing that?

I swear, compared to Clarence Darrow, we modern day progressives behave like a bunch of candyasses.

“He put fundamentalism itself on trial. Why aren’t we doing that?”

Probably because:

a. we aren’t theologians and would very quickly look unprepared and ill-informed
b. this isn’t (though at times it appears to be) a religious venue through which to argue various takes on religion
c. the quickest way to make an enemy is to dismiss what they believe as nonsense without even trying to understand what they believe and why
d. many of us aren’t anti-fundamentalist (or really anti-anything at all). They can believe whatever they like as long as they leave us alone. We deal with where our worlds interact.

If you want to fight religious fundamentalism, go right ahead. But I don’t think this is the place for it. And I, for one, won’t be joining your religious crusade to stop “dangerous ideology”.

Oh, and incidentally, not all of us are “progressive”, either… but I suspect most of you guessed that by now.

Is there such a thing as a pro-globalization, anti-abortion, libertarian progressive?

If there is, then I guess I’m a progressive.

Well said Kurt. I stated my thoughts on religion, being a staunch atheist, in an earlier post that religion in general is responsible for much of the stigmatization and backlash against our community. No getting around that fact. Fundamentalism in particular, whether it be Christian, Islamic, whatever, creates unrealistic standards that practically nobody, even those who preach it, can live up to. Thus, they end up picking a group of people that are viewed as “easy to pick on” such as the gay community. Besides boards like this, I see little to no public backlash against this debacle. Then again, the media prefers to show the anti-gay side rather than the gay side. When was the last time you saw an interview with one of us on gay marriage? I have no qualms in calling a spade a spade on this. I don’t feel I’m in danger of becoming another Alan Chambers but I will confront b.s. with fire if need be. I disagree Timothy, these people are without a doubt, our enemies. How can we not consider them our enemies when they spend most of their waking hours cooking up ways to slander and stigmatize us and otherwise stick their noses in business that is none of theirs and where it is most definitely unwelcome. I’m sick and tired of what these people are getting away with in their smear and lie campaigns and its time for our community to get tough with these people.

I agree with Kurt and Tim that we need to get tough and we have been candy-asses, but what Timothy said was tough: “Their lies and self-delusions are enemies not only of us but also of thought, civil discourse, and humanity. Lets fight their lies and hatred. As was mentioned above, that is what is truly evil.”

I don’t think we need to go much beyond that and cross the line into saying they are enemies even if we believe it. Voters in the U.S. are a fairly religious group and that kind of statement could backfire. However, I certainly wouldn’t call Alan Chambers, Exodus, “FOTF”, etc. sincere. For years they’ve used the line “complete change is possible” to imply same sex attractions don’t exist after “conversion therapy” while claiming to only mean complete change in sexual conduct is possible. While one can’t automatically assume a religious fundamentalist is dangerous these particular people’s chronic lying is evidence of malicious intent and so is Alan Chamber’s talking about us the way the Nazis spoke of Jews before the holocaust. I think we best say that but we have to have a philosophy of fairness and equality and that means at some level we have to accept even malicious people (or “enemies”, if you must) as part of a humanity we are committed to improving.

MikeA asks: Is there such a thing as a pro-globalization, anti-abortion, libertarian progressive?

No, there is no such thing. Or person. The positions are incompatible.

This is obviously a fund-raising brochure. That poses the question: does Chambers have an honest job unrelated to Exodus?

thankyou Jim, I really bent my brain on that one.

Tim, Kurt T, Dalea – I am a bit of an atheist myself and Timothy is from a fundamentalist background but we are very close together on this issue. If you can’t convince him to give substantive support to what you are saying I don’t think you can convince a large chunk of moderate religious voters to support fairness for gays. Please re-read his posts and give thought to the “us” vs “them” issue. Gwynn Dyer noted the wisdom of a comic strip character: “sometimes us is them”. I have often emphasized the same point in my discussions on Fairness First(c) – my own personal religion – world, please make it yours.

Logically all humanities’ goal must be to maximize the benefit and minimize the negative for all individuals in an equal way. Its the only philosophy that can potentially eliminate all human conflict. Carl Sagan says that conflict is in our genes, and I agree. We all need a strong committment to conflict resolution from birth onwards to have for all the best world possible – that means anti-bullying programs in schools targeted to minority identities the majority has created by targeting individual differences (such as effemininity or same sex desires) for special treatment(abuse).

Raj, thanks for pointing out this isn’t just about exodus, “fotf”, etc being malicious, its about money too. While there may be sincere mislead people making little money operating exgay shops the same was likely true of some good white people facilitating slavery. Saying these are principled people gives undue credit when the principle involved is religion says one person should judge and dictate another person’s life.
I believe the moderate voting public buys into the anti-gays’ lie of “compassion” because we haven’t shown the general public our outrage at the chronic lies and deceptions put out by Exodus, “Focus on the Family”, throckmorton, Chambers, etc.

I just want to make a couple of points, and then I’m going to leave this thread.

I don’t think that challenging fundamentalism requires that we become theologians or resort to personal attacks.

To me, challenging fundamentalism means when somebody says to me

“I can take away your civil rights because this book tells me I can, and this book is The Infallible Word of God.”

I say

“No. That book is The Fallible Word of People. It was written a long time ago by people who had a lot of superstitions and prejudices.”

But that’s me. I see the rise of fundamentalism in this country as a very dangerous trend. I see it as a core problem that spawns lots of other problems, and I think it’s important to address that core problem.

If you don’t agree with me, that’s fine, but I don’t want people to think I’m suggesting that we engage in ad hominem attacks or whatever else.

Mike, I join you in this column:

Is there such a thing as a pro-globalization, anti-abortion, libertarian progressive?

If there is, then I guess I’m a progressive.

Timothy says: I hope that those who consider going to battle against Exodus will stop and consider whether they want to become Alan Chambers. They and he are not our enemies. Their lies and self-delusions are enemies not only of us but also of thought, civil discourse, and humanity. Lets fight their lies and hatred. As was mentioned above, that is what is truly evil.

That is actually what my piece about defensive prejudice was about–seeing my own capacity for prejudice in myself, and not liking it, and wanting to do something about it.

Randi, “Fairness First(c) – my own personal religion”

Hmmm, I may not become a complete convert, but I certainly may borrow some “theology” from your new religion.

Fascinating analysis from all sides:

I think we also should distinguish between “ex-gays” like Chambers or Stephen Bennet, who clearly struggle with a personality characteristic they have been taught to hate/fear and fight, and the “religious” or political leaders who promote the “ex-gay” agenda, but are not themselves “ex-gay.” I really believe the Dobsons and Fallwells and Robertsons of the world are completely cognizant of the inherent contradictions of their positions, and of the myths and slanders that they are promoting about gay people (not to mention women working outside the home, Democrats, non-”Christians”, etc.). However, they also know such attacks on these groups generate huge sums from their followers (who themselves I think really believe the hype) and that is the main reason such leaders are loathe to change tactics.

These “religious” and political leaders, of course, then create the environment that pushes people like Chambers and Bennet to undergo “ex-gay” indoctrination. I think they end up as such huge promoters of the “ex-gay” movement, even if they themselves have not experience complete change, because of the old psychological mechanism of cognitive dissonance – if you fight for a position long enough, you tend to continue supporting that position in the face of contradictory evidence, because you have such a personal stake in the position being right (like American Stalinists in the 30s who could never quite admit the horror that man unleashed on his own country).

As for fighting fundamentalism, I agree that cannot be the point of our struggle, although I understand Kurt’s concerns about the impact of such “religions” on the public sphere. What we are really fighting for is the First Amendment- the right to our own personal moral and spiritual beliefs. As I have explained to my own Southern Baptist relatives, I completely reject their “religion” and the theology on which it is based. I understand that they have the right, in this country, to make the mistaken “lifestyle choice” of their “religion,” but they must return that respect, and understand that I have a right to live my life according to the moral/religious belief that homosexuality is a completely normal (albeit rare) part of humanity – neither inherently good or bad.

The problem with American fundamentalism is not that people believe in it – the problem is that they then demand that the government support only their position on social issues, under the guise of either “protecting society” or because they do not want any contradictory information being presented to their children. Neither position is teneble for the federal government, and that is a fight we can whole-heartedly agree to.

kurt_t at November 14, 2005 07:07 PM

Read the transcript of the Scopes trial, the part where Clarence Darrow put William Jennings Bryan on the witness stand. He put fundamentalism itself on trial. Why aren’t we doing that?

Just to remind you, the jury convicted the teacher–Darrow’s client– after he put Bryan on the witness stand. The conviction was overturned a couple of years later on a technicality, which had nothing to do with Fundamentalism.

Darrow put Fundamentalism on trial, and lost. He made Bryan into a fool from a national standpoint, but that didn’t help with the jury. I’ve seen Inherit The Wind.

Jim, I agree completely with your last statement.

The problem with American fundamentalism is not that people believe in it – the problem is that they then demand that the government support only their position on social issues, under the guise of either “protecting society” or because they do not want any contradictory information being presented to their children. Neither position is teneble for the federal government, and that is a fight we can whole-heartedly agree to.

Exactly – I agree 100%. This country was founded in large part by people seeking religious freedom and I have no desire whatsoever to turn even this kind of ranting into a hate crime. The country must allow for all beliefs, even if that be no belief at all. God (to my understanding) gave man this choice so who are we to take it away? The fight is against imposing particular beliefs on others through the power of law and government policy.

It saddens me to see these discussions descend into slander against this or that belief. I don’t impose mine on anyone and in return I don’t expect ridicule of what I feel to be sacred. It offends the majority for the actions of a minority (Alan Chambers, et al). Sometimes it seems that these attacks and the apparent anger that accompanies them are fueled not by the issue at hand, but by personal struggles over whether God exists or not – a separate issue entirely.

Alan Chambers is not my enemy. I believe his ideas are wrong and divisive and his motives questionable (I agree with Raj on that). Sometimes it takes a lot of energy but I think it’s important to fight the urge to hate.

Put me in the “pro-globalization, anti-abortion, libertarian progressive” column as well

David

David Says: It saddens me to see these discussions descend into slander against this or that belief. I don’t impose mine on anyone and in return I don’t expect ridicule of what I feel to be sacred. It offends the majority for the actions of a minority (Alan Chambers, et al). Sometimes it seems that these attacks and the apparent anger that accompanies them are fueled not by the issue at hand, but by personal struggles over whether God exists or not – a separate issue entirely.

David: I don’t think I slandered any religious belief other than to emphatically state that I do not hold religious beliefs and my opinions come from the perspective of a non-believer. That perspective may seem anti-christian, but it is not. The point I am making is that I do not appreciate having relgious organizations dictate civil rights for gay people. In my view, they have no position on my status in society and I have no position on theirs. Forgive me for being angered by this, but I am very offended that these people impose their beliefs on me. I also do not believe that much of what is purportedly their “beliefs” are such. To these ears, it goes beyond the realm of belief and into the area of hatred and prejudice. I have a real issue with accepting that many of the anti-gay rants are to be considered “religious freedom”. The marriage debate for example, regardless of the country, is not about marriage it is about whether gays are equal or not, accepted or not, right or wrong.
It seems to me that many posters on this board do not accept the non-religious point of view as it is often seen as embracing the tactics of our enemies. I do not see it that way. As a non-believer, I do not express points of view from a christian perspective, and do not accept christian teachings as truth. I am not struggling with this issue at all.