Today (03/21/06) Alan Chambers, President of Exodus International, was the guest on Stephen Bennett’s Straight Talk Radio. Alan had something very interesting to share with Stephen:
Stephen: You know a message that seems to be a common thread in so many testimonies of individuals who have left the sinful behavior of homosexuality seems to be a broken relationship with a parent and many times it’s the same-sex parent. There can also be a closer relationship maybe with the opposite-sex parent. And again while this isn’t a parental blame game, and I’m not trying to say this applies to every situation, because it doesn’t, Alan do you find this to be true in stories you hear from individuals either dealing with unwanted same sex attraction or even those who have left the practice of homosexual behavior?
Alan: Every man and woman that I meet has that common link, a lack of relationship with their same-sex parent, and it’s not always a hostile relationship with their same-sex parent, but it is always something that is missing. There’s a breech that happens early on, wether it’s um… hostile or wether it’s just a perception that occurs or an inability to identify with them at all, and I think that the reason why that’s so prevalent is because we live in a culture where there are so many broken homes.
Wow, what a gem! This is a good as Melissa Fryrear’s claim “I have never met [a homosexual] that has not been sexually violated in his or her life.”
He forgot to mention that every heterosexual person he meets has a missing link with their same-gender parent also.
Probably just slipped his mind.
When I was in exgay therapy, there was a lot of pressure to find some kind of problem with the relationship with my father. There was also a lot of pressure to say I was molested. When I refused, things always became much more complex. Eventually the therapists had to essentially say that these things existed but I had pushed them out of mind.
Well, I know I’ve said this before here. They definitely fail to see that they are meeting only a select group of gays (those that would go to or seek out ex-gay therapy). These are usually not the most emotionally healthy individuals, I’ve noticed.
I now enjoy meeting people outside of the ex-gay world that are gay and health/happy with good relationships with their families (in the ex-gay world, these folks didn’t seem to exist).
I understand why Melissa and Alan don’t run into many healthy, well-adjusted gays (with good family relationships) in the ex-gay world…but you’d think they’d at least have to acknowledge the stories of people who post here and elseweb about these things (like Aaron here, and Justin from gaychristian.net, and plenty of other people I’ve run across).
We know they read/monitor this site and others…I don’t know why they think our stories are less valid than theirs.
I do have to say that I give Stephen Bennett credit for saying, “I’m not trying to say this applies to every situation, because it doesn’t”. Especially coming from a guy who clearly believes that all gays can/should change. I find his statements actually much more respectful here than Alan’s.
I think it’s good to give credit where it’s due…
To be honest — but what the heck does he expect of normal parents anyway?I’m not even going to get into the parents of gay vs straight; that much is already well and truly known as no different.But Alan’s comments about parenting — not just in this spiel — come across as a very immature, demanding child.
How many in this exgay movement are that demanding child, someone who will never be satisfied regardless of the attention they get — for good or bad reasons? I’m just running thorough the well-known exgays, in my head. Nothing scientific.Is this why so many seem so easily walked into drug, alcohol and sex control problems? The need for attention overrides all commen sense? Their backgrounds in cold and rejecting religious families? Parents with their own tragic backgrounds who expect beyond normal of their children? Exgays who fall instantly under the spell of the severe father figure of James Dobson, or their exgay group leader, or a religion?It would be interesting to compare the backgrounds of those who hate their homosexuality and “go exgay”, and those who dabble but reject the environment, and those who would never even consider it in the first place (count me in there).If there was one single thing my father ever wanted to show me how to be… it was to resist the selfish demands of others.Alan Chambers — I had a great father.Authorative, but never authoritarian.Prepared to pass judgement, but never judgemental.Prepared to say how I went wrong, but never critical.A father who wanted my best, but never more than my best.Always gave more than he took, and pretended he was the selfish one.He taught me that “real men” ignore the opinions of people like you.Your message, therefore, falls on deaf ears.You are a gnat in my ear, thanks to my father.
(First an aside grantdale, my Japanese-born partner and I have a phrase for that tendency in the West. We call it the “look-at-me culture”. I came up with the term. But he thinks it applies to all that is wrong about the West.)
And now for my point: Since Bennett says that only the ‘EXGAYS’ he met had a bad relationship with their same gender parent, I suspect that my strong relationship with my father. My respect and admiration for him. And the fact that it grows as I grow older. Is all way I’ve never thought I was anything but GAY. Perhaps its ‘exgays’ that have the parental problems. They should work on that. So that they can accept their gayness.
When you read through the comments of both Stephen and Alan above, it’s clear that neither actually says anything. Stephen acknowledges that broken relationships with parents are not common to all gay men. Alan says that the ‘lack of relationship’ may just be the ‘perception’ that ‘something is missing.’ Talk about trying to force a theory.
I remember sitting with my first reparative therapist twenty-some years ago (an MSW in a cheesy ‘Christian counseling center’, who I now realize had no clue what he was doing) and insisting I had a great relationship with my father. Over the year that we met, he convinced me that my dad was unloving and distant and had caused my ‘SSA.’ It wasn’t until recently that I was able to repair the relationship shredded by decades of reparative therapy malpractice. Alan and the whole exgay industry should be ashamed of how they undermine families by holding to their pseudotheraputic theories on the origin of homosexuality.
I wondered along with Mike why Alan didn’t mention the ‘missing link’ between hets and same-gender parents… but then like Mike I guess I really didn’t expect that after all. Grrrr.
No probs Christopher – understand exactly (a sister is Japanese, except for the genetic heritage 🙂 Fluent, lived there, will be living there again, and again. Watch out for a tall white blonde chick in kimono — with Maori boyfriend!)I could prob. come up with the phrase in reverse for so much of Asia, but then having had a “bit” of contact we know it’s complete B.S. anyway at the end of the day. “We” all find a way to escape… and declare “LOOK AT ME!” in our own ways. I think it’s called “growing up”.Just don’t expect me to do it at a tea ceremony. Or in a kimono. VBL…
Getting back to serious, with Rick — if you don’t mind :)I can imagine someone trying to put these thoughts into your head, but do have any ideas about why you may have been receptive to them?Where you vulnerable at the time? (ie just gone through a bad patch) Or more generally open?I hope we’re not prying, but trying to make sense of what makes no sense for many of us would be a great insight. (If it’s OK — your age and when this occured, roughly 🙂 would help as well)And thanks in advance too!
Aaron said:
When I was in exgay therapy, there was a lot of pressure to find some kind of problem with the relationship with my father. There was also a lot of pressure to say I was molested. When I refused, things always became much more complex. Eventually the therapists had to essentially say that these things existed but I had pushed them out of mind.
This is a fine answer to the question “why would you oppose reparative therapy for those who want to change”. A scam is a scam – the intentions of the patient/client aside. I’ve run into this same sort of garbage with others who honestly didn’t realize how absurd it was; to insist that, even if no real issue exists then the perception of such an issue must have been the root. Can we all step back and acknowledge what this really is?
A study of possible commonalities among those who are willing to submit to this kind of abuse and filter their childhood through the agenda of others would be far more telling in my opinion.
David
Well, let’s see… I was 20 years old, it was 1983, I had just graduated from a fundamentalist Christian college, and I was convinced that being gay was a horrendous sin because nothing in my life-long bubble-world ever told me anything else. I implicitly trusted ‘experts’, in this case via referral from an ‘expert’ ‘psychologist’ at my college who told me re-orientation would take about a year. I believed God would lead me to the right person for help, so I did not employ critical thinking or ask questions whose answers might burst my bubble. I pretty desperately wanted to be ‘normal’ and have a wife and kids and all that. I also planned to be a pastor (had already invested 4 yrs in a B.A. in Religion was enrolled in seminary) and of course being gay just wouldn’t do for that. So… yes, I was completely open to whatever guidance an expert could share with me. It didn’t take long for me to be persuaded that my dad caused my homosexuality. The truth is, of course, that our relationship was imperfect – perhaps in ways I had been unaware of. BUT, rather than helping me just grow up and learn to improve my relationship with my dad, the therapy constantly hammered on the theme of my father’s sin of rejecting me. In hindsight, it was all such hooey and it pisses me off now that I let it happen. The two ironies are 1.) the fact that I never had same-gender sexual contact until immediately after I began the therapy and it quickly became compulsive despite the therapists efforts to help me (I now believe shame and fear had a lot to do with that unfortunate phase of my life) and 2.) the fact that now that I’m out, my fundamentalist dad completely embraces me as his gay son and loves my partner as well.
Not sure if I really answered your question, but thanks for askin’!
… and I think that the reason why that’s so prevalent is because we live in a culture where there are so many broken homes.
So which culture is it that has no significant gay element? Is every culture producing gays due to “so many broken homes”, or will just the perception of broken homes do?
David
Well, I did have a really hard time with my Dad growing up – we just didn’t connect. Part of the problem was that Ma and Dad split up for about 6 mos when I was not yet 2. They eventually worked things out (and went on to 35 years of marriage), but I will admit to being very distrustful of my Dad when I was a child – I never knew when he would leave again.
So, of course, I totally bought into the “ex-gay” theory, and did all the things I was supposed to in order to “repair” the damage. I had straight, older male friends who actually encouraged me to try playing sports for the first time in my 20s (and coached me to be successful), but no change ever happened for me.
It was not until much later that I realized my relationship with my Dad was actually pretty good from about the ages of 4 – 7, after we’d had family therapy (and I’d had individual sessions). It was not until after 7 that our relationship began to get worse again, and now I know that was when he first was suspecting I was gay – which only exacerbated the innate differences between us – I being a total school nerd, while he was a jock.
Since I came out, however, my relationship with Dad is much better – certainly it is equivalent to my sister’s relationship with him. There is no way anyone can take even the common experience of a bad relationship with a parent and read anything into it. There are as many reasons for good and bad family relationships as there are families, and there are just as many ramifications of both types of families.
CPT_Doom said:
Well, I did have a really hard time with my Dad growing up…
This is the point – there is no consistent pathology in the early life experiences of those who turn out to be gay. Their life experience runs the full gamut just like everyone else. That is the problem with anecdotal evidence, one can make it say just about anything, which is why it is not accepted as authoritative.
For instance, two brothers grow up in the same family at the same time but only one is gay. No problem (for our theory), one simply perceived a disconnect with his father that the other didn’t. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so dire.
David
This whole “your dad was overbearing” or whatever the cause de jour is for why people turn out gay is reminiscent of the “childhood abuse / repressed memories” fiasco last decade. People were accusing parents of some type of abuse when it turns out the this “abuse” was all a figment of the therapists imagination.
Studies as early as the 1950’s showed no relationship between upbringing and adult sexual orientation. Studies since then have only confirmed this understanding. Yet therapists at NARTH and others continue to espouse this nineteenth century Freudian misunderstanding. The damage this does to both patients and their parents is unconscionable. Then when therapy based on these felicitous premises fails to cure the patient of their gayness, they blame the victim for not trying hard enough. The amount of time legitimate therapists take to undo the damage that these charlatans cause is significant.
Nope Rick. That about said it all, apart from the icky details you spared us 🙂 And thank you.I’m also glad your Dad has proved himself to be the decent father I suspect you knew was in there (apart from the “imperfections”, which frankly are N-O-R-M-A-L!). Ya know, none of us are… perfect, I mean. My theory here: as we grow up, it begins to slowly dawn on us that our parents are neither perfect, expert, or sexperts. But most do their very best. As adults we accept their imperfections as they accept ours (that BTW is the new “Lords Prayer”).I didn’t want to guess, but I suspected all this happened at an age when you both fully aware of your attractions and with adulthood looming forward. Many people choose to come out at that point. Some do not. Some go exgay — and you fit a disturbing pattern I’m noticing in that regard.In any case, thanks again. It’s a bit creepy talking about yourself, I know.But deep down good parents (even if ever mistaken) always come through in the endWe didn’t ever worry about that, but it still cracks me up to hear Mum walk out while we’re blithering away with Dad and interupt with “You boys need to help me move the (insert large heavy object here)”. You know she’s been saving that move up for weeks, just waiting for a couple of big-sissy-limp-wristed boys to turn up (or, failing that, us…).And there’s our fantasic 90 year old grandmother referring to her “my extra grandson”. The coming out story with her still leaves us in fits of laughter/terror :)Actually, gawd, I would love to make Alan spend just 10 minutes with our Nan — after gathering he was a “rude, stupid boy” in 15 seconds flat… she’d speak her mind, in a polite old fashioned way, and leave him more pussy whipped than, well, spending ten minutes on a machine that whipped you with a pussy.Cheers.And CK — if you read that, don’t email us. I don’t know of a manufacturer, even if it is your anniversary 🙂
LOL, Grantdale 🙂
David – good point about siblings – except that both my brothers are gay, too – ha. And a few nephews, cousins, etc. I see that as a strong case for a genetics, but I suppose others would see it as proof for environmental cause.
Saddest of all are the parents that would rather believe an untruth about themselves (that they “caused” it) rather than just accept their children for who they are.
Rick said:
I see that as a strong case for a genetics, but I suppose others would see it as proof for environmental cause.
I see it as more evidence that it just happens, like so many other bits of what makes us human. I would have to be daft not to acknowledge the possibility of a genetic component to gayness, however either way it is as deeply set into my being as anything can be. Why should I spend (any more of) my life trying to change something like that?
I found out later in life that a large percentage of our block (where I grew up) had gay children. What am I supposed to blame that on – the water 🙂
David
“I never had same-gender sexual contact until immediately after I began the therapy and it quickly became compulsive despite the therapists efforts to help me (I now believe shame and fear had a lot to do with that unfortunate phase of my life”
Rick, assuming by “compulsive” you mean more than one partner, you’ve helped verify a long held theory of mine that its the inability to explore same sex attractions at leisure in a safe open environment that encourages irresponsible sexual behavior in some people.
>Saddest of all are the parents that would >rather believe an untruth about themselves >>(that they “caused” it) rather than just accept >their children for who they are.
When I told my mother I was gay, I thought she had a really good reaction. It was not until months later that I realized she had a really hard time with it. The bishop told her that gayness was caused by the parents, and she was horrified that she had caused me to be gay. I realized this later when she broke down. I assured her that dad and her had nothing to do with me being gay. I let her know that I always knew that I was gay–at least had male attractions. THe funny thing is she had forgotten so much about others telling her I was gay (she started to remember after our discussions–her grandmother told her, for example, that I was gay as a kid. The kindergarten teacher told her the same thing. I went to therapy as a kid because the teacher said I was gay. I would ask her questions as a kid about why I liked boys instead of girls, etc.). She went to therapy and the therapist helped her out a lot–telling her that I was gay because I was gay, not because of what my parents may or may not have done. That helped her stop putting blame on herself. So therapy can be a really good thing. My parents today would be very angry if I quit being gay–they like my spouse more than they like me:) They see us as a complete unit–they see my relationship as better than I could ever have otherwise.
Alan is a victim. He believes in a culture of victimization. I don’t. Yesterday, I heard that teacher who molested the child blame everything–mental illness, culture, family. She made me sick. I am gay–it is a part of life. I don’t search for blame and victimization. I get tired of this culture of excuses, so I take responsability–I am gay because I always was.
What a crock of sh*t.
I went to a PLFAG meeting last night and met the anti-alan.
Great guy, great mission.
Check out heartstrong and share the link.
https://www.heartstrong.org/
Love to all.
Allan, with 2 l’s…lol
Are you talking about Marc Adams? He’s a great guy. He operates on a shoestring budget of donations but manages to do a lot of work. His heart is really in it.
David
grant/dale – I actually just read that little italicized “shout-out” … but it took me a second or two to get it…groan.
I was looking for your email addy, though, because I’ve been lurking on the Brokeback Mountain parody comment thread at PSIMO. I am a bit curious about your use of plurals and username–if only logistically (does Grant reply to what Dale wrote? Do you write together at the computer?). It took me a while to figure out that the moniker represented two people.
So… you can email or reply on a thread, if you want. I wouldn’t go so far as to accuse you of enmeshment or pschological issues, since I don’t know you–but it is a question I’ve been wanting to ask.
ck
grantdale at March 22, 2006 11:01 AM
“…and leave him more pussy whipped than, well, spending ten minutes on a machine that whipped you with a pussy.”
That is an inappropriate posting for XGW. We strongly believe in kindness to cats and would never support attaching one to a whipping machine!!
😉
Aaron at March 22, 2006 03:58 PM
“Alan is a victim. He believes in a culture of victimization.”
Very good point. So often the right decries the vicitimization culture, and rightly so. But when it comes to gays, they’ve adopted the “blame somebody” attitude.
Alan (or whoever) behaved badly because of a “homosexual lifestyle”. Alan (or whoever) adopted the “homosexual lifestyle” because of his father (or molestation, etc.).
And not being content with their own victimization, they try to make victims of us all.
The political religous right oppose criminal rehabilitation programs in favor of punishment (they aren’t victims, they’re criminals) – but they favor gay rehabilitation programs.
It’s ironic, isn’t it.
I haven’t revealed it to but a few, but Jamiel Terry, the gay adopted son of famous anti abortion activist and homophobe has been living with me.
Initially he was in LA for a Xmas visit through the holidays.
But he decided to make LA, and mine his home.
I took him to a marriage equality meeting featuring mostly my PFLAG parents and colleagues.
Never in his life had Jamiel experienced a collective of parents of gay children.
They passed out pictures of their new grandchildren (some with their two mommies or daddies), or spoke with pride on the new accomplishments of their gay children. How long they’d had their same gender partners…how badly they wanted their kids to be married.
Especially if their hetero children already were married.
Jamiel was just blown away. He said that before he’d let his father and other homophobic parents, (he knows the Keyes family for example) off the hook for just being unfairly biased.
Now that he’s been exposed to not only accepting parents, but politically ACTIVE parents, looking to make the whole world safer for their kids and grandkids, he’s vowed that he no longer holds any compassion for parents like his father.
He’s of the mind that REALLY loving and committed parents, would accept their CHILDREN, not rumors or judgements they hear from outsiders willing to punish their blood.
The hosts of the party, moved from Florida to CA, a much more gay friendly state to give their gay son more options.
They have two sons, one gay, one not.
Jamiel was so impressed that he was a little envious of what these parents, and siblings were willing to do for each other.
His father gets a lot of publicity for being a big ‘family’ advocate.
As do Chambers and Bennett and Foster, et al.
But a real family is about love for ALL their kids, not just the straight ones.
Often, some gay children are more likely to be isolated and treated differently from their siblings. They won’t receive the benefit of having burgeoning relationships with their peers or romantic interests in front of their parents, they don’t always have the same support for protection at school.
Of course their situation is skewed, so their adult worldview might reflect that.
But Exodus DOES exploit emotional fatigue and ignorance, they introduce themselves when a person is most vulnerable-this isn’t always a choice, but a resignation to lack of them.
Jamiel’s revelation, after many years of political and social indoctrination to further his father’s agenda, was something to see.
We are very close. He was received with a lot of love from those parents, well aware of who his father is.
And they didn’t hold it against him and never will.
When it’s all said and done, no parents are perfect and most stumble along hoping for the best.
But when it comes to gay youngsters and their parents, Exodus and other ministries or therapies are getting away with archaic, unworkable and abandoned methods and motives.
These groups are allowed to persist. I really have to know why.
When research after research and evidence upon evidence shows gay folks to not only be normal, but highly competent and effective WITHOUT a ministry or therapy such as this, how can they get away with focusing on a NON issue, a NON disorder without sanctions by the government and other social justice advocates?