Focus on the Family’s Gary Schneeberger has been feeling morally superior to gay people since he saw Brokeback Mountain.
*** Movie Spoiler Alert ***
This is primarily because, he, unlike the largely gay audience that shared the auditorium with him, did not laugh at Alma catching Ennis and Jack kissing.
In what could have been a true evaluation of his feelings (but wasn’t), Schneeberger says that he shouldn’t be feeling so morally superior. Such thinking is dangerous and shameful. Unfortunately, Schneeberger does not indicate anywhere within the article that he actually feels any differently now (because, after all, he IS morally superior, he just shouldn’t think so).
His glibness – which comes across similar to “love the sinner, hate the sin” – is readily apparent in the following quote:
…I’ve got to do more than sniff at the insensitivity and immaturity of those gay men and women I watched the movie with. I’ve got to do more than be disgusted at the subject matter of the film. I’ve got to consider why they laughed…
But he doesn’t consider why. In typical anti-gay fashion, he sets up a strawman:
Is adultery, and the punch in the gut it delivers to the one being cheated on, perfectly acceptable so long as the adulterer is “being true to himself”? Is fulfilling their own selfish desires, no matter who gets hurt, the only thing homosexuals care about? I mean, gay, straight, sideways, diagonal, convex — I don’t care what your orientation is, if you respond to a scene like this in a manner like that, you’ve forfeited your claim to the moral high ground in any cultural argument. Ever.
The laughter that has been heard in some theaters at this part has nothing whatsoever to do with any joy over Alma’s pain. It’s certainly not some celebration of the fulfillment of selfish desires.
Only a much distorted view of humanity, especially gay humanity, would come to that conclusion. You would almost have to have never met a mature gay person and to have believed everything negative you had ever heard in order to believe that.
I have two possibilities, both of which are far more likely, than that of Schneeberger’s:
1. Movie audiences are used to melodramatic conflict, expecially in gay films. Those unfamiliar with the story are probably expecting a big showdown between Alma and the boys and the laugh is in anticipation of such. When a catfight does not occur and instead we see Alma sobbing at the devastation of her world, the laughter turns to echoing silence.
2. The story tension has been building at that point for several minutes and nervous laughter is not uncommon. It’s more a reflection of surprise and a tension release than anything else.
There certainly could be other reasons as well. And there is no reason whatsoever to believe that only gay people (or even primarily gay people) laugh at this point.
Schneeberger’s article ends thus:
I am fortunate to work each day alongside men and women who grasp these basic, but crucial, truths better than most. The Love Won Out team, led by Mike Haley, reaches out daily to scared and confused people like the characters in “Brokeback Mountain.” Sometimes it’s men and women struggling with their own same-sex attractions; sometimes it’s the friends and family members of those men and women. But every time, the counsel and the prayer Mike and his team offer is authentically, unrelentingly Christlike. They extend love and hope to those told by the world their only choice is to love a life of hopelessness.
I’ve always admired my Love Won Out friends, but I’ve been convicted of my need to better emulate them now that I’ve seen “Brokeback Mountain.” It’d be a lie to say that I enjoyed the movie, but an ever greater one to say I’m not grateful I saw it.
I’m certain that Schneeberger did not enjoy the movie. The depiction of the characters as human, flawed but real, must have caused dissonance with his internalized cartoon image of debauched homosexuals. Unfortunately, rather than question his preconceptions, he entrenches them.
It is clear that FoTF views all gay people as scared and confused (along with insensitive and immature). And it is from this basis that Love Won Out operates. They tell gay people that their only choice is either a life of hopelessness or an endless reorientation struggle (and just in case life isn’t hopeless enough to convence you, they’ll try to influence legislation to make it so). And yes, LWO is relentless. And it’s also clear that all involved with FoTH and LWO feel morally superior to gay people.
Unfortunately, they are far from Christlike.
I didn’t laugh during that scene, and neither did my partner. The straight people around me laughed, and I was puzzled by it.
Then it hit me. I just saw two men kissing and thought nothing of it. Many of them were seeing it for the first time. I think the laughter was mostly a release of tension that had been building among a predominantlhy straight audience.
I think my suspicion was confirmed when that laughter abrubtly stopped as horror fell on Alma’s face. Her performance was devastating, and the audience felt it immediately. I never heard laughter in a theater halt so suddenly.
And not all audiences laughed. I was at an art house in Bethesda. Plenty of gays there. No laughing — just a collective gasp.
My lesbian wife stayed quiet during that scene and reached for my hand, and my straight SIL and my bisexual self cried. I didn’t hear a single person laugh.
I cried because Ennis and Jack hurt themselves and two women rather than be able to be together. I cried for them all. I cried because I know they have real-life counterparts in this world.
And I’m thisclose to crying again, because people like Schneeburger and ministries like FOTF work so hard to create more marriages and more scenes just like that, and either they honestly can’t see it or pretend to be blind! Morally superior, my foot.
When Spielberg’s movie “Schindler’s List” was screened in a black neighborhood here in Los Angeles. Many black teens in attendance were observed laughing at the scenes where upon being detrained at the concentration camp, the Jews were forced to be naked.
In an unusual sequence many elderly and very young people were obviously naked, even by cinematic standards.
It was shocking, in that usually nudity is reserved for love scenes or locker room scenes, and the actors are young adults.
The laughter of the teen audiences was annoying and disconcerting and maddening.
For some reason, black audiences can be far more raucous and expressive.
But this movie was intense and horrific.
Many of these young people were identified and brought to the Museum of Tolerace for some sensitivity training.
They participated in role playing and several Holocaust survivors met with them.
Considering the remarks by the President of Iran, and Pat Robertson, it’s not just teens who have a problem.
Indeed, members of the Iranian press were brought to the Museum to pass along their experience to their public in their home country.
Brokeback Mountain represents a small teaching window.
“Beautiful Thing” an even better one for young people regarding young gay love.
Jack and Ennis knew they were in love with each other before either of them EVER got married.
Their situation, being resigned to heterosexual pressure to marry, or literally die…isn’t for heterosexuals to judge.
Laughing, whether nervous, derisive seems insensitive, but addressing the reason for it during certain situations is fair.
Jayelle, I am a naturally affectionate person. It’s my nature and I’ve always felt real sorrow for affectionate people, who were in undemonstrative relationships. Whether they be parent/child, sibling or platonic friends or the romantically involved.
I have lesbian friends that I am demonstrative with. Women aren’t really looked at in the same way as men in our situation.
I really don’t care what anyone thinks.
Love is a great thing. And we should show it wherever we can.
And one shouldn’t feel at risk for doing so, that’s what’s twisted.
As Wayne Besen pointed out on his blog. The owner of the Utah Jazz also owns a cinema complex and he refuses to screen Brokeback Mountain.
But the movie “Hostel” a graphically, horrifically violent movie about murder in a youth hotel, is screening there.
Two men kissing, a no no.
Young people being killed by all manner of mayhem, is okay.
Yep, the logic escapes me too.
OK…I’ll jump in here…mostly because I trust Timothy and a little because I’ve been devastated as was Alma. Not in that exact same sort of scene…but close enough.
Here’s the thing. You just can’t judge people’s hearts based on something like this laughter that was heard in this movie theatre. We really aren’t supposed to judge people’s hearts at all…since it’s pretty much impossible. And sometimes our actions can hurt others even though that’s not our intention. I’m not going to see the movie…but I imagine if I did see it…this might be the point where I’d have to run sobbing from the theatre….because of the wounds of my own pain being reopened. At this point I have no desire to reopen that wound just for the sake of gaining an opinion about who deserves an Oscar this March.
The fact that the silence falls so quickly after the laughter is what I’m going to choose to focus on in this peice. It’s encouraging that after the sort of “knee-jerk” reaction there’s an immediate and profound silence as everyone seems to realize more deeply what’s just transpired.
Now….I’d be willing to tell Alma there’s hope for her marriage….for her sex life…for the passion and fire of her relationship with Ennis to burn bright and consume them both. There is hope. But that’s also just my opinion based on my personal experience.
grace
grace,
Thank you for sharing that with us. Perhaps when this movie is available on DVD you might consider watching it. While the outcome of the movie is different than what you have experienced, I think the emotions of the movie will speak to you stonger than perhaps any of us here.
This movie is about lost opportunities, bad decisions, fear, and regret. Primarily those of Ennis, but also of all the characters. I imagine that you will see Alma’s choices, and those of Lureen, and have perspective that I can only glimpse at distantly. I would love to hear your thoughts at that time.
(but, of course, I respect your decision if you decide it would be too painful)
Thanks for your kind words Timothy. I’ve thought about seeing it that way. And I may. I will be transparent (again, what’s WITH me?? ha!) and say that I was loving and encouraging toward my husband even after I knew in that I gave him my blessing as a father to his sons and a person I’d always care about even if he chose the other path. But he refused it and believed in us and our marriage and the path we were on as ordained by God….and we both stayed. I guess I just say that to let you know I was respectful of his choice….which at that point, for him…did become a choice….just one that took a while to realize. I think I’ve said too much…but you know I never mean to offend.
I’ll definitely let you know if I ever do see the movie.
grace
I can’t help being suspicious of all this holy writ.
From the Bible to the Book of Mormon to the Q’uran.
Women are so held in shadow. Women did not contribute as if they couldn’t be imbued with the same holy spirit as men? But are summarily blamed for the troubles in the world because males don’t know what to really make of us?
And are STILL barely conditioned to be civil to us in so many ways, in so many cultures.
This is why I keep saying that the most natural situation that keeps us from tearing each other apart, but can also skillfully transverse the assumed roles of gender is homosexual people.
We know so much more about gay people, and what’s left to learn, isn’t that hard to figure out.
I question THE BIBLE and who has reinterpreted it, reinvented it and warmed it over all these years. Which has STILL been done by ALL MEN.
Sure, sure…ex gays keep saying ‘question homosexuality’.
Been there, did that.
I question the authority of the Bible and it’s writers to assume things for women and homosexuals.
There is beautiful language there, to be sure.
Like what Paul says about love in Corinthians.
The 23rd Psalm is enchantingly gorgeous.
But so is “The Prophet” by Kahlil Gibran. I absolutely LOVE that book.
But it’s still a man who wrote it.
Or….was it?
I like language, and the chronicles of another time.
But considering all the blather in the blogesphere even now, and how many people don’t get things straight.
The Sago mining disaster, for example.
Would I be so wrong to presume that people being what they are….the folks who wrote the Bible and rewrote it again were just as likely to misspeak too?
I saw the film in a packed arthouse with what I assume was a primarily gay audience. No one laughed.
Grace….what a thing to have to deal with.
Your very name speaks of what you have for your husband and your situation.
For that I have much respect for you, dear.
Jayelle said:
And I’m this close to crying again, because people like Schneeburger and ministries like FOTF work so hard to create more marriages and more scenes just like that, and either they honestly can’t see it or pretend to be blind! Morally superior, my foot.
This is so true. I was very close to a married couple where the husband finally acted on lifelong same sex attractions. To my amazement, they stayed together and his wife was a welcome guest at our local social events (small GLBT group of friends) and PFLAG meetings. I could see the pain in her face at times but she was strong. They were both sincere Christians and had a teenage daughter. The fact that he was experiencing same sex attraction never seemed to be the epicenter of the pain, but mostly that his affections were drawing him away from her. Who can’t understand that? Certainly the gay aspect added confusion and additional mystery to the issue, but to a lesser degree.
To me this is an intolerable situation, but not one we can blame on homosexuality itself. It is a byproduct of marriages (and lives) based on a lie, and no matter what the lie, it is likely to cause pain and anguish. If the attraction toward the opposite sex is dominant, and the spouse accepting, then I suppose it can work. But encouraging people who know full well that they are only sexually attracted to the same sex to marry (a member of the opposite sex) would seem to me unconscionable.
David
Perhaps it’d be good to start something here:I shocking with film titles, but would anyone care to name those films that have dealt with this theme of 1) finds the love of their life and then 2) marries someone else — with all the rest that follows.I realise there are many on the theme, all heterosexual.(The reason: I’m also glad grace dropped by — I’d like to see us offer up a few suggestions to help put BBM into what is a common context for such films. Perhaps getting one or two of those out on DVD would be a good entrée. I realise Grace’s life — hopefully my dear — doesn’t follow a film script, but, well, being able to see the connections will make BBM an easier film to read.)
It’s me — Aaron posted some ideas over on another thread. Don’t want them lost.Aaron, hope you don’t mind me cutting and pasting.—THere are tons of films with all variations on the theme. Just to pull one out quickly, Titanic. While her true love ends tragically, Rose still marries and goes on, but her true love was forbidden. Moulin Rouge is another in that vein. Foreign films like In the Mood for Love deal with that theme a lot. American films tend to be more classical Hollywood and so love almost always results in the true love being sustained, but still the themes tend to persist. I will provide more. Probably the most classic example of all time is Wuthering Heights–the two characters are in love but marry others for a variety of reasons. THey only find true love in death.
I saw BBM last Sunday at a neighborhood art theater in Buffalo, NY that seats 850. It was packed for every show of opening weekend. After the show, my BF and I had 41 guys over to the house for dinner – all gay, many of them, like me, formerly married. Some of the after-movie conversation was wistful remembering of our own choices and the pain inflicted on others and ourselves.
I was prepared for the kissing scene and was interested to see if this audience – heavily gay but quite mixed – would laugh. They did. It was an outburst of surprise followed quickly by the silence others have described here. Schneeberger has read far too much into this scene to make his anti-gay point to his anti-gay audience.
Grace,
Thank you very much for sharing what is obviously a very painful situation. And God bless you for being such a brave and strong woman.
The fact that the silence falls so quickly after the laughter is what I’m going to choose to focus on in this peice. It’s encouraging that after the sort of “knee-jerk” reaction there’s an immediate and profound silence as everyone seems to realize more deeply what’s just transpired.
That is exactly how I interpreted the total response. And I too found it very encouraging as well. It was almost as if everyone was ashamed of laughing when they understood Alma’s pain.
Grant….sometimes I’ve felt like I was in a movie….of the horror genre! haha! 🙂
Kidding aside (sort of), the movies “Bridges of Madison County” and “The Horse Whisperer” are two that I think of offhand that involved “forbidden love” and following your heart or not. I think in both of those (can’t remember exactly) the movie ended with everyone miserably going on in their sad state. Is that right?
But my movie wouldn’t end that way. The thing is, for me, that even IF my husband were to one day fly away back to gayness, I’d be okay. I’m dependent first and foremost on God. It would be devastatingly hurtful, but I’ve already been hurt like that and God has seen us (both of us) through. So, I trust GOD, not my husband, if that makes sense. It’s a wonderful peace that really does pass all understanding. Furthermore, our marriage has been restored to a sort of “happy ever after” place as in some movies. We are best friends and we share a romantic, sexual relationship that’s more incredible than I initially dreamed something like this would ever be.
As always, I appreciate your kindness here and the fact that you welcome my viewpoint. Right now, I’m facing a bit of a trial with my oldest son, so this little dialouge has been good for me. It’s reminded me that I do have to just keep trusting God, even when things look bleak.
Thanks Grantdale, somehow it got over to the other thread accidentally. 🙂
Dearest Grace,
Certainly PFLAG meetings…which can also provide materials and access to networks that help opposite gender spouses of gay men and women and their children.
I attended PFLAG meetings myself and met spouses in your situation.
The good thing about PFLAG is that they DO cover these situations without exploitation of it, as is the risk with some churches.
I am always so impressed by the depth of love (which should be encouraged) and compassion that’s between couples who experience what you have.
Or couples who stayed together after one transitioned to the opposite gender (creating a same gender couple).
Either way, human love is complex and what love there is deserves support and care from all of us regarding LGBT specific issues in society.
After all, this is still about THE COUPLE, not extra marital issues.
Come on people, we are the most immature people on the planet. I laughed at that scene and so did all of my gay friends. It was sensational and erotic.
Regan,
The trial with my son is not gender/sexuality related….it’s just “get your act together” related!! haha! In fact, if it WERE gender/sexuality related I’d probably have better resources than what I’m actually dealing with right now! I’m just trying to laugh through my tears as far as this current trial is concerned. Basically, I’m moving a kid from Pepperdine to a junior college. But that’s okay. The GOOD news…for me is….I’ve acutally experienced worse in this life!! haha! At least he’s healthy and was capable of going to an expensive place like Pepperdine and completely screwing up! ok…enough of me and my rambling…I have my own blog for that!
grace
grace,
“Basically, I’m moving a kid from Pepperdine to a junior college.”
You evil evil woman.
😉
(for those who don’t know, Pepperdine is one of the most beautiful campuses that there are, located in Malibu)
I’ll pray for your stength and wisdom. I’m sure he “hates” you right now but in time it will work out.
Gay4Ever said:
“Come on people, we are the most immature people on the planet. I laughed at that scene and so did all of my gay friends. It was sensational and erotic.”
I’m not sure about the collective “we” to which you refer, but I have a friend who just went to see BBM in a nearby city. I had asked him to watch for this very moment just to see if they also laughed. He said it was very quiet during the kiss scene. He rated the audience as heavily gay (as much as one can discern) with also a lot of straight couples. I’ve yet to see it so I can’t say for myself, but not to have also recognized the pain of that moment would seem odd.
David
gay4ever said
“Come on people, we are the most immature people on the planet. I laughed at that scene and so did all of my gay friends. It was sensational and erotic.”
I find your anonymous comment suspect.
I don’t know anyone, nor have I heard of anyone, who thought Alma seeing the boys kiss was “sensational and erotic”.
That’s a very odd description. It seems much more typical of someone from Focus on the Family than it does of an actual gay person.
Hello Grace, I wasn’t quite sure what was happening with your son, but I sure support you and wish you all the best.
I am respectfully pleased that you are here.
“(for those who don’t know, Pepperdine is one of the most beautiful campuses that there are, located in Malibu)”
Only on the outside unfortunately.
How exactly does one theater audience, at one showing of a film, even if 100% gay, represent the entire moral character of the gay community? Oh, I guess you have to believe there is absolutely no differences among gay people – we are all one huge walking stereotype, apparently one that cattily laughs at a scorned woman’s pain. And for the record, of the two times I saw the film, there was scattered laughter – of the nervous kind – at one showing. I interpreted it as others have – that people thought the proverbial sh*t would hit the fan after Alma sees them kissing, but her reaction is so different from anger – but so intense and internal – that it becomes one of the highlights of the film, and no one is laughing when Ennis comes back in and tells her he likely won’t be home that night.
Of course, if we all used Mr. Schneeberger’s reasoning, any act of callousness or indifference or cruelty by a tiny number of members of a group – say the fundamentalist Christian movement – would be enough declare the entire group morally unfit and forfeit of their “claim to the moral high ground in any cultural argument. Ever.” Good thing that no small group of fundamentalist Christians have ever acted with indifference or coldness to the gay community [/sarcasm]
As for films with similar themes, one that immediately springs to mind is Age of Innocence. I was struck by the similarities the first time I saw the movie. The book is one of my favorites, so I decided to re-read it, and the similarities are even more glaring. Sadly the movie was not that good, but the book is a brilliant and heart-breaking account of two people desperately in love, but who cannot be together because of social conventions.
For those who don’t know the plot, in “Old New York” society of the 1870s, Newland Archer falls in love with the Countess Olenska – an American woman who had a horrible European marriage and who has taken the shocking step of separating from her husband – just after announcing his engagement to her cousin, May Welland. By the time they realize how both of them feel, his wedding date has already been sent and she, of course, is still married, and divorce would bring about a huge social scandal her family does not want. Newland ends up marrying May, almost at the Countess’ order, but his love for the Countess doesn’t end, until he and the Countess are efficiently, ruthlessly and permanently separated by the forces of society.
Xeno, hello…and yes, you’re right on both counts.
I’ve gone to the Pepperdine campus for special events. The last being for Los Angeles area playwrites.
It’s a private Christian college…and extremely unsupportive of the needs of their gay student body.
But not unaccepting of their MONEY.
Rabbinical colleges are changing in that regard.
It’s becoming like night and day in how Jews are addressing homosexuality and gay students at Jewish colleges.
“Question homosexuality”, the mantra of ex gay ministry is contraindicated in the Jewish realm of faith.
With Jews it’s most often been “question everything”.