While poking around public records (which I’m not going to specify in the interest of Alan’s privacy) I found last August Alan and Leslie Chambers purchased a four bedroom home for $325,500. I don’t think Leslie is a full time staffer at Exodus but I did find record she was the manager of Exodus’ 2004 Freedom Conference.
Update: Alan Chambers added the following information in a comment posted to this entry.
1. In 1999 my family gave us money to buy our first home in College Park–Downtown Orlando’s oldest neighborhood. We bought on a street that had yet to “catch on”. We paid $137,000 for our home. 6 years later we sold it for $325,000. We had paid a lot off on our home and thus had a lot to put down on our new, modest, home. We live beneath our means and we do not go in debt, aside from a small mortgage.
2. I am happy to tell you that in 2005 my income from Exodus AND speaking engagements was about $65k. Far less than the presidents of HRC, GLAAD, GLSEN and the other pro-gay organizations.
3. All honorariums and proceeds from my book go to Exodus and not to me.
4. Leslie coordinated the 2003 Exodus Conference for $10/hour. Her total income for 2003 was about $10k. She did this as a favor to Exodus so that we didn’t have to pay a lot of $ to hire out.
5. For those of you who think $325k is a lot for a home in Orlando, think again. We sold our 1350 sq. ft. home in College Park for $325 and bought our new home for the same price in Winter Park. Today, both homes are worth more than $450k–appraised. The Orlando market is staggering.
Sounds like a nice house for that area. I wonder what Exodus pays their staff because according to their 2004 budget the management expenses weren’t all that much.
Yeah…you wonder where the money is coming from sometimes. In Alan’s case he could be making extra on speaking engagements, set up for him by the religious right machine. And his books and such.
Sounds like he’s living in one of Orlando’s pricier neighborhoods.
You Can make a decent living gutting the heart out of people. I wonder how it feels to live in a house whose every brick and board was bought at the cost of some gay person’s ability to love, and accept love from another.
I would imagine it would feel pretty awful, if you thought of it that way. But in his eyes, he is helping people learn to love correctly. As such, I doubt Alan regularly comes home and mourns all the hearts he has gutted– this could be in part due to the gutting of his own heart.
Orlando? A home for US$325K? It must be a mansion. And some people here have suggested that ex-gay “ministries” don’t pay very well! I doubt it.
I would bring up Lonnie Latham, the Southern Baptist Convention official and Tulsa OK minister who was arrested in the last couple of days for soliciting sex with a male undercover policeman. His 2005 Mercedes Benz was impounded in OK City. A 2005 Mercedes? Such luxury.
Ummmm, coming from Southern Cal, $325K is nothing. I do not think that is overdone. For a house in this area, it would be very, very small. One could conceivably get a minor salery and buy such a house with loans, etc.
Orlando is about 90 minutes from where I am. $325K is comfortable, but far from a mansion.
Aaron: we live in the Boston area, and US$325 is barely enough to get you a fixer-upper. Continuing…
Phil, I was exaggerating, in part to make a point. It has been suggested here at XGW that people in the ex-gay movement don’t make a lot of money. That may be true of some of those down in the trenches, but it appears not to true of the pigs at the top (to coin a phrase). It takes a relatively substantial income to sustain a mortgage on a US$325k house. I don’t live in Orlando, but I am familiar with FL real estate–my parents winter in Ft. Myer, and I would suspect that the Chambers would be able to acquire a very nice “mobile home” in the area and rent a plot to sit it on for a small fraction of US$325k.
It appears that “ex-gay” pays very well.
In answer to some questions:
The median home price for the entire Orlando area is an astoundingly low $362,500. Source. The Chambers’ residence is four bedrooms and has what records describe as an “above average pool.” In 2005 the median home price in Winter Park East (their area) was only $210,500. Source.
Get a life people!
Raj, of course, you’re right. Somebody has to be making money off this, or it wouldn’t exist. Sorry to be so cynical, but in order for something to flourish in our society, it has to be well-funded. True of religions, health care, and just about any other noble idea.
This ex-gay business is a puzzle, though. It doesn’t appear to reach a huge number of people (despite claims to the contrary) or even to have much appeal to a lot of people. Yet we have people making a full time living from it.
As they say, follow the money…..
I think there’s too little info to make meaningful observations — only very preliminary guesses.
Exodus’ budget does not support salaries high enough for Chambers to afford a $325K house — and he has owned more than one house in the past. More on this, soon.
The nepotism involving Leslie is troubling — but hardly unusual among nonprofits. Many nonprofits have all-too-permissive boards that excuse or encourage nepotism and other profit-taking with the claim that low salaries justify some “flexibility” in hiring.
Yes, Mike, but with proper audit controls nepotism is avoidable. Also, I assume Exodus is a 501C3 or similar organization, so they are subject to IRS reporting rules.
Having held a variety of offices in LGBT non-profits, including treasurer/CFO, I can attest to the complexity of even attaining tax exempt status, let alone maintaining it. Unless you are getting funds to pay for lawyers and accountants, which requires a substantial budget.
As a LGBT group, which was staffed largely by LGBT individuals, we didn’t even have to worry about IRS looking at nepotism, since spouses didn’t exist on paper, as far as the IRS was concerned.
But I wonder if legal and statutory compliance services aren’t being paid for by some other group, “off the books” somehow.
Dan, you miss (or are avoiding) the point. The point is, that, contrary to assertions that have made here, apparently ex-gay operations’ “pigs at the top” are doing very well. It requires a considerable monthly income to be able to afford a mortgage on a US$325K mortgage, plus the insurance and property tax, in FL.
The cost of a trailer in FL is much lower, and nice double-siders are virtually undistinguishable from “fixed” in-ground housing. I’ve seen many in very nice areas in southern FL. Why didn’t Chambers settle for a trailer? I suspect that he’s nothing more than a “pig at the top.” So, working back up the chain, ex-gay is very profitable, as I’ve been saying here for months.
Raj, OT, but I can give you six good reasons why not to settle for a modular home in FL: Charley, Frances, Ivan, Jeanne, Katrina, and Wilma. Having sat out Charley, Frances, Jeanne, and Wilma in my site-built home, there’s no way I could even consider trying it in a trailer. Seeing the results of hurricanes and trailers mixing just cinched it for me.
These people give capitalism a bad name. But in all seriousness, I wonder where his cash flow is coming from to pay his mortage. Most people dont even know ex gays exist and considering the relative size of the clientel its hard to believe he could make a living. Then again Fotf prob. pays big bucks for him to keep on licking the pussy. Oh well, wonder if Focus ever got involved with Abramoff.
File this story under “so what and who cares.” Bully for the Chambers if they can afford a house like that – which is less than the overpriced 1 bedroom condo in Washington, DC I bought.
Waitaminute waitaminute waitaminute!
Winter Park?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that Orlando’s gayborhood?
Just a weird bit of analysis–a trailer or cheaper housing would seem less permanent. For someone who believes he has changed, this stability of such a house could be something psychological. 4 rooms also suggest a family.
I have never questioned Alan Chambers’ gayness or lack of it, so I won’t do it here, and the analysis could just be coming from my ass and probably is. I do agree with the person who said to get a life. Now, if there was something illegal, that would be something to discuss.
Aaron at January 8, 2006 11:19 PM
Aaron, I don’t particularly care. Apparently you still do not understand the point. I have been criticized here for suggesting that “ex-gay ministries” don’t pay very well. Do you know how much income it would take to qualify for a mortgage on a US$325K house? Chambers is obviously taking in a lot of loot from his anti-gay activities. Anti-gay is profitable.
Moreover, contrast that with the fact that Chambers could have bought a double-wide trailer and plopped it on a spot for a small fraction of the cost.
Just to let you know, I do not denigrate people who own double-wides or make use of trailer parks. Far from it. What I do denigrate is people who denigrate other people to increase their income. People like Chambers.
Raj, I was not attacking you or even making reference to anything you said. In fact, I was being silly and did not intend for my comment to be taken seriously. So, I am sorry if you thought somehow I was referring to what you wrote. Like I said, I was talking out of my ass, and it was a useless comment on my part anyhow. I was just having fun with it. No offense.
Aaron, I wasn’t attacking you, either. I was merely making an observation on the people at the top of the “ex-gay movement.”
If you took what I posted as an attack on you, I sincerely apologize.
Good, Lord, you guys. Is it a slow news day? I have no idea why this information is so interesting to all of you. HOwever, at quick glance, I am happy to answer the questions you have raised:
1. In 1999 my family gave us money to buy our first home in College Park–Downtown Orlando’s oldest neighborhood. We bought on a street that had yet to “catch on”. We paid $137,000 for our home. 6 years later we sold it for $325,000. We had paid a lot off on our home and thus had a lot to put down on our new, modest, home. We live beneath our means and we do not go in debt, aside from a small mortgage.
2. I am happy to tell you that in 2005 my income from Exodus AND speaking engagements was about $65k. Far less than the presidents of HRC, GLAAD, GLSEN and the other pro-gay organizations.
3. All honorariums and proceeds from my book go to Exodus and not to me.
4. Leslie coordinated the 2003 Exodus Conference for $10/hour. Her total income for 2003 was about $10k. She did this as a favor to Exodus so that we didn’t have to pay a lot of $ to hire out.
5. For those of you who think $325k is a lot for a home in Orlando, think again. We sold our 1350 sq. ft. home in College Park for $325 and bought our new home for the same price in Winter Park. Today, both homes are worth more than $450k–appraised. The Orlando market is staggering.
No secrets here and certainly no scandal. All is as it should be.
I am so flattered that you care enough to keep me accountable, Dan.
Alan Chambers said: “I am happy to tell you that in 2005 my income from Exodus AND speaking engagements was about $65k. Far less than the presidents of HRC, GLAAD, GLSEN and the other pro-gay organizations.”
And I am happy to tell Alan that the presidents of those “pro-gay organizations” don’t earn their income through the persecution of others, as he does.
Good, Lord, you guys. Is it a slow news day?
Just marvelling at how comfortably even a mere cog in the anti-gay machine can live these days, on the death of their neighbor’s hopes and dreams. But I guess it beats going door to door selling expensive vacuum cleaners to little old ladies on fixed incomes…
I am happy to tell you that in 2005 my income from Exodus AND speaking engagements was about $65k. Far less than the presidents of HRC, GLAAD, GLSEN and the other pro-gay organizations.
So how much does James Dobson make Alan? Jerry Falwell? Pat Robertson? Donald Wildmon?
Alan I think Satan is using you to hurt gays even though gays haven’t hurt you or anyone else.
Winter Park is the yuppie suburb of Orlando. Thornton Park, IIRC, is the “gayborhood.”
Off topic, but Jerry Falwell has taken Alan Chambers’ “hundreds of thousands” of ex-gays to the next level is now claiming there are “millions.”
https://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48242
It looks like the ex-gay plan to dominate the world is going well.
Chambers’s comment merely confirms what I’ve been saying here for some time: rhetorical bashing of gay people can be very lucrative. (See #2 above) I wonder how much he would earn if he actually got an honest job.
Rhetorical gay-bashing pays.
I don’t see a problem with choosing to earn only $65K for a worthy cause.
Of course, if someone knew their cause were unworthy because its flaws had been pointed out, year after year….
As I said before, my concerns about Exodus finances relate to funding that seems to be off-the-books.
Posted by: Boo at January 9, 2006 03:26 PM
That’s problematic, since Falwell and others like to argue that being gay is an aberration because of, in part, its statistical infrequency (as evidence of an a priori biblical truth, of course).
Let’s assume there are millions of ex-gays in the US, and the population of the entire US is around 29.5 million. If 1 in 2 gay people turn ex-gay, that makes the percentage of (pre-ex and non-ex) gays around 6.8% That’s a pretty high conversion statistic, so if the conversion rate is 1 in 5 (which is still giving them a high ratio!), that means that there are around 5 million gay people for the 29.5 million US citizens. That’s nearly 17%.
Either way, the numbers just don’t add up….
Mike Airhart at January 9, 2006 03:52 PM
I don’t necessarily disagree with you but…
“I don’t see a problem with choosing to earn only $65K only…” US$65K? What leads you to believe that Chambers would be able to earn anything close to US$65K if he was not rhetorically bashing gay people?
As I have commented here, anti-gay “religious” organizations can be extremely lucrative, and Chambers merely confirmed it. Anti-gay pays, particularly for the pigs at the top.
So in conclusion, Jerry, (this got cut off, sorry)– you can have one or the other:
– There are MILLIONS of ‘recovering homosexuals’ (a special interest group in themselves) and homosexuality is statistically at or above 10% of the population
– There are zero to a few thousand ‘recovering homosexuals’ (which means that ‘recovery’ isn’t as ‘easy’ as Falwell wants to make it) and homosexuality is statistically rare.
ck at January 9, 2006 05:22 PM
ck, the US population in 2004 was 286 million. Your numbers are off by about a factor of 10.
Guys, come on!!!
If Chambers was making a fortune or had bought some extravagant mansion, then maybe there’d be a point to this discussion. But lets not be petty here.
$65 K is not a huge salary for the level of responsibility Chambers has. Actually, it’s fairly small. And there is no basis for suggesting that he is somehow at fault for not living in a trailer. Talk in this direction just sounds spiteful and, well, crazy.
I oppose what Chambers does because his words are dishonest, his actions are harmful, and his motivations are dubious. I may not like his work, but I certainly don’t fault him for getting a decent wage for the work he does.
Lets not lose our focus. It isn’t on Chambers’ salary but on his words and actions.
Thanks, Tim…that’s embarrassing. I did think they seemed off. I looked up the info on the Census Bureau but must have moved the zero over one too many times.
So I guess maybe there are MILLIONS of ‘recovering homosexuals’ …
Timothy, I think any amount of money earned by Chambers for what he does is too much. Let’s substitute “thieves” for “chambers” in what you said and tell me if you’d still agree:
“I oppose what thieves do because their words are dishonest, their actions are harmful, and their motivations are dubious. I may not like their work, but I certainly don’t fault them for getting a decent wage for the work they do.”
So you guys think Alan shouldn’t have a home? I am a big fan of this blog and most of the stuff that comes out here, but this is over-the-top. Alan does what he does in order to help people. I am in agreement with most everyone here that Alan’s actions do not help– but his motivations are pure and I do not question them. That is the fact that is missing so often from the comments on this site: the conservative Christian side of things acts the way they do towards homosexuality out of a mixture of prejudice, untruth, and genuine concern for what they view as destructive behavior. By acting snippy and debating whether Chambers’ home cost too much, we are only proving their point: “They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful.” (Romans 1:29-30– this is one of the chapters they use to condemn us, and we are proving them right.)
I’m not concerned with the house they live in.
Just how many ‘hard to place’ children, like black kids, kids with HIV or other problems that are usually reserved for ‘last resort’ gay people to adopt, will be living in this new home the Chambers purchased.
Those opposed to gay parents adopting, such as Tony Perkins, or Ralph Reed, Lou Sheldon or James Dobson…haven’t been so bothered to do such a task themselves.
They forget that most of those ‘ideal heterosexual parents’ are looking for the same like themselves when shopping for ideal heterosexual children.
Randi,
I can understand where you’re coming from. I can be frustrating to see people compensated for doing what you believe is wrong.
However, I’m sure that some on the opposite side might not think that sodomites should get a decent wage for the work they do. So, it does cut both ways.
While I object to Chambers’ tactics, I don’t object to the existence or premise of Exodus (or some other ex-gay ministry) should it be truthful and fully disclosing. So I don’t mind that this ministry compensate its employees.
We may have to agree to disagree. (we’ve gotton good at that) 🙂
ck at January 9, 2006 06:40 PM
“So I guess maybe there are MILLIONS of ‘recovering homosexuals’ …”
well…. maybe. and then maybe Elvis is still alive, the moon landing was fake, and the Earth really is flat.
Maybe
😉
Cyrano at January 9, 2006 08:47 PM
Thanks for reminding us that the zeal on the side of the conservative Christians is not motivated soly by hatred or ignorance. Many really think they are “helping”.
However, on the part of Chambers, he certainly must know better. He can’t possibly believe “hundreds of thousands” or half the lies on his website. They’ve been debunked over and over. Alan is completely aware of happy healthy gay couples and individuals (he monitors this site, for one) and he knows with absolute certainty that very few ex-gays, if any, have changed their sexual orientation.
So while I am willing to give a lot of “ministries” the benefit of the doubt about their genuine concern, it is quite difficult for me to extend the same assumption to Alan.
I assume that he really does believe that he’s now saved from a sinful lifestyle and that gays are going to hell. But I think he’s become hardened and jaded and that “saving souls” takes a far far lower level of importance to him than does “fighting the gay political agenda” or “defeating liberals”.
Posted by: Cyrano at January 9, 2006 08:47 PM
Anyone that lies the way Alan does isn’t all that genuine. Refusing to acknowledge the happy supportive gay relationships they see and refusing to promote that as a desirable outcome is not genuine.
Alan does what he does in order to help people.
Well my take on the man is a little different, but in any case the issue as I saw it when the post about his home went up wasn’t about whether he’s allowed to have a decent home but how Exodus is spending it’s money. I did my own quick online survey of home prices around Orlando and from what I saw that’s a fairly pricey, though not grandly high end home. But as they say…location…location…location…
At a guess I’d say the motivations of the typical church goer putting money into Exodus’ plate are probably a lot purer on average then that of it’s leadership. They’re entitled to know what their money is buying. Did you notice that the reverend in Oklahoma, the one who got arrested for propositioning an undercover cop had his…2005 Mercedes…impounded? Now I don’t think you necessarily take a vow of poverty when you place your life in the service of the ministry, and goodness knows faith based charities aren’t the only ones with issues about how much of the money they take in goes toward “overhead”, but how the money is being spent, given what they keep saying is the dire threat to families and American society that homosexuality represents, is a legitimate question.
And…yeah…it’s a legitimate question to ask of the big national gay rights organizations too. Oh…don’t get me started on them…
I’d agree (largely) with Timothy regards the exact amount, and the pissanting around.Unless it ran into a honking big number, and even then that itself would be used as “proof” in certain circles about how God has truly blessed the Chambers and the missions of Exodus (just as, I guess, He also blessed Marian Robertson with those diamond deals with African dictators etc etc).I am more concerned about the deceit that runs from one end of Exodus to the other — the fact of (at best) rare change in sexual orientation, the slippery personal histories, the falsehoods about the decent lives maintained by the overwhelming majority or gay men and women, the barely disguised political involvement and direct links through to viciously anti-gay religious organisations. Their sheer, wilful ignorance.Nevertheless, it’s worth being clear with this thread given this discussion is going to be sitting “out there” for others to find and read.
Of course, I am not suggesting anything other than that the way the income is declared is anything but thoroughly legitimate. Of course, no Christian organisation would ever be involved in an expense bloat leading to a tax dodge using section 107. Particularly if doing so lead to personal gain by an individual.
Timothy Kincaid at January 9, 2006 05:46 PM
Oh, please, Tim, give me a break. The guy Chambers is nothing more than an anti-gay rhetorician. What kind of responsibity is that? As far as I can tell, his only “responsibility” is to raise money for his sponsors.
grantdale at January 9, 2006 11:27 PM
Pretty much true, but it’s Marion “Pat” Robertson, not Marian, who cavorted with African dictators. Marian is a female name.
Going up a bit
Alan does what he does in order to help people.
I don’t know where this came from, but it is fairly clear that Chambers does what he does to make money. If he wanted to help people, he might try getting an honest job. Greeters at Wal-Mart help people. People who do what Chambers does, don’t.
This entire thread is petty and embarrassing.
David
ReasonAble at January 10, 2006 12:07 AM
Don’t read it, then. Do you have anything to contribute?
Yes raj. I know.David, I’d agree — as have others — that banging on about whether someone needs and deserves a roof over their head is petty. That, I’d hope, is not even open to question (unless a category 5 hurricane floods your city, I guess, at which time you may find youself abandoned.)That said — knowing what Exodus is, and the way it operates or structures itself, is not petty even if the details are (for many) rather trivial or boring.What I do find fascinating is to watch Exodus present itself (and/or permit such a perception) as a legitimate medical/scientific/counseling expert group when it suits them to mislead people… and, yet, they go running under the cover of religion whenever it does not suit them. Such as how they structure the pay for their Exec.Dir.I’m glad one of the details of Exodus are being duly noted here, for the record, and that several of us have ALSO questioned the appropriateness of some of the comments. We can be both, no?I’ll even say it… In point of fact, Exodus DOES NOT provide an extravagant lifestyle for their staff — even if their claims about homosexuality and gay man and women are outrageously extravagant. But… Exodus’ 2005 budget of $1 million could feed, clothe and educate 3000 children in a developing country for an entire year — and I’m hard pressed to see the entire organisation as anything but a horrid waste of resources to an ultimately pointless, and cruel, end.Neither you nor I et al are responsible for other’s comments here; and you need not take any ownership of them. K? 🙂
Grantdale, I can agree with you for the most part, and I think you catch my drift well. It becomes frustrating though, especially when “you know who” never seems to find a standard of conduct he can’t stoop below.
I don’t like Exodus because I think they are wrong (as in incorrect), but this kind of argument over what this or that organization could better do with their funds never accomplishes anything. And I can’t imagine what business it is of ours how much Chambers paid for his house.
I’m not taking ownership of those comments, but I hold XGW in high regard and comments like some of these make me feel embarrassed on behalf of the the blog. I like that there is a place that people can come and see factual, reasoned debates about a subject that is rarely treated that way. When this kind of petty stuff comes up, I think it just makes us look foolish.
Anyway, you are right and it’s late. I would be better off sleeping and keeping my mouth shut 😉
David
grantdale at January 10, 2006 01:28 AM
I will lay it all out for you. There has been some commentary here that ex-gay “ministries” don’t pay very well. But, at US$65K per year apparently they pay Mr Chambers very well. Rhetorical gay-bashing can be quite lucrative. That has been my point all along, and Chambers merely confirmed it. From my experience, it is clear that his earnings from the anti-gay organizations are probably based on the amount of money that he can bring into the anti-gay organizations.
I’m not going to opine on the extent that Exodus might be paying for the upkeep of his house in the Orlando area. I will merely point out that there are probably more than a few trailer parks in the area in which he could get a roof over his head for a lot less that US$325K. Oink.
raj, I hope you remember I work as a consultant analyst.No (sensible) organisation will shove their public face into a trailer park. Vile as they are, I’m not going to be the one to suggest that Focus aren’t sharp operators. It’s a con job, but Dobson’s a past master at the con and has been for decades.I also don’t know what your expectations are, but $65K is not a huge salary these days. Leveraged up by the sec 107 wrinkle, Chamber’s is effectively earning more than $65 would suggest and I have little doubt it buys his obedience. Far from being merely a $1M organisation, Exodus is a key to the entire anti-gay campaign that Focus is engaged in. $65K is small beer when considered from that perspective and by that organisation.That said, I also have never had any indication that Chambers (or the rest of their paid staff) could earn similar amounts on the open market. Given that everything comes down the pipe from Colorado, it’s still a fair slab of money to pay for an empty suit to shake hands and spin falsehoods to the media. From that POV: yes, being a professional anti-gay is personally lucrative for Chambers. I sure he knows it.Unless something new comes to light, I think we have exhausted this subject for now.
Okay, I know you all already have me completely figured out, but I would like to offer each and every one of you an invitation to come and meet me in person at Exodus in Orlando.
If after we talk in person you still think that I am who you currently say that I am so be it. But, I think it is entirely possible to completely disagree while still respecting one anothers right to fight for what they believe in.
Anyone interested in real dialogue? I am more than willing to listen to anyone who has a complaint, has been hurt by what I have said or written. I am human and I am open to correction.
Just don’t think that you are going to change my opinion—you might impact how I share it, though.
Any takers?
For starters Alan, stop telling people this “exgay” business changes sexual orientation, stop telling people “complete change is possible” and letting people believe you mean same sex attractions are completely changed into opposite sex attractions when you don’t. Be honest and tell people up front that the vast majority of people going to “exgay” ministries never substantively let alone completely change same sex desires into opposite sex desires. Stop opposing the right of loving supportive monogamous same sex couples to marry the one they love most.
By the way, I can’t afford to come to your place, how about you come visit me in my mobile home in rural Saskatchewan. I fail to see what can be accomplished in a face to face encounter that cannot be accomplished electonically, in fact electronically is better as it automatically produces a written record and gives time to consider answers the pressure of a face to face converstation doesn’t
Alan,
I wish I could. Unfortunately, this time of year I can’t get away to Orlando (tax season is gearing up).
However, If you are ever in Los Angeles area and your schedule allows, I would love to discuss with you certain very specific issues. I’m not one who objects to ex-gay ministries universally and will limit my objections to realistic areas where we can come to some concensus; specifically, the accuracy/supportability of claims and the political activism of Exodus.
Please let me know when you may be in the area.
Thanks,
Timothy Kincaid
Timothy and David,
You two are awesome.
grace
Hi Alan!
I tried to reach out to you and you ignored me.
I wouldn’t mind trying again, but what are YOU trying to prove Mr. Chambers?
I’m the granddaughter of Lillia Green. She was a Chicasaw. And she and her sisters were subjected to the same kind of Christian exercises that told her and Cama and Pochahontas (yes, that was her name) that what THEY were wasn’t good enough or loved by God either.
My Aunt Pokie never recovered from it and her life was very sad sometimes.
Their crime?
Not being white, and Christian…but Chicasaw and spiritually grounded in the belief that one should treat another as one expected to be treated.
And where my NA ancesters come from, gay men and women are a MIRACLE of life and Creation and our much needed brothers and sisters on the journey.
You, Alan Chambers represent those who abuse and refuse that basic law of empathy over and over again.
Why….should I trust YOU?
Why should I trust what you do as kind if you have two faces, speak from two mouths?
Which one of the faces and mouths if any, speaks a truth?
This is for my Aunt Pochahontas and her sisters….
Their Christian teachers smiled as they said ‘we do this for your own good’.
While all around them, other young people from other tribes died from abuse, despair, and shame and loneliness away from their homes and families.
Much like the beloved homosexual children of God are charged to do from people like you with two faces.
If they are no longer homosexual, they are no longer alive as God made them.
And nobody owes YOU, a man, of many thousands of men….anything that was GIVEN by God.
YOU can’t it take away and call yourself righteous.
Changing yourself is no mark of courage, but surrender.
And here you come with your link to Exodus as IF you were courageous and did something wonderful by transitioning from gay to straight.
The world NEEDS to know who gay people really are.
And you can’t teach that with two faces.
Because we can’t know who YOU really are here for, now can we?
Posted by: grace at January 10, 2006 06:34 PM
Well thank you Grace! There are some pretty terrific people here and I enjoy your blog as well. You are a sweet, genuine person.
David
🙂 thanks
Thank you Regan. It means a lot to me that you take the time to shield us from those those who knowingly lie to blindly oppose loving supportive same sex relationships. Thanks for reminding me of the beautiful religious beliefs that people like Alan would do well to consider.
Alan,We’re also not likely to be in Orlando anytime soon. Nor you in Melbourne AU. It’s hardly important anyway, and similarly we need not meet with the CEO of McDonalds to be clearly aware of what his organization is selling.Not wishing to leave you completely bereft, we can suggest where you, as Exodus Exec. Director, may start without our physical presence.Begin with your “Exodus Healing Statement”.It is a completely misleading statement. Why not correctly mention what actually occurs to the majority of those who contact you? Why not correctly mention what would actually occur if those who don’t contact you were coerced into doing so?Following that, why not add a new statement — “What Exodus recognizes about the lives of gay men and women.”At that point you may observe, accurately, that the majority of gay men and women are clearly:content with their livesdo not want to be heterosexualcannot be heterosexual even if they wanted to bewould be damaged if they were compelled to live as heterosexualsare not confused or ignorant about their gender or their sexualityare in genuine and loving relationshipsare harmed by anti-gay political and social groupsno threat to society, heterosexual marriage, or childrenshould be free to make decisions about their intimate livesdeserve to participate as equal citizens in the social life of their communitiesare not an outcome of poor parenting, sexual abuse, gender confusion or deliberate choice
not to be used a scape-goatnot to be luridly described as a tactic to bring in donationsYou can, please note, make all those statements without changing your religious views. But we would expect Exodus will always work in ways that recognize these observations.You may further add that Exodus will never work with, or associate with, groups that present gay men and women in ways contrary to those observations.Finally, I’d welcome you applying the same attitude that underlies the “I know you all already have me completely figured out” to all the work that Exodus does. Only in this case, behave the same way toward gay men and women as you expect others to treat yourself.Frankly, I think Regan has you figured out. Words are cheap. And promises are made to be broken.You remain at liberty to surprise us.
P.S. ReganAgain, we do appreciate your attempts to take all such people up on their offers to “dialogue”.Let us know if and when anyone ever genuinely follows through :)(Given you’ll prob. cardiac arrest if that happened, you should ask the local hospital if they have bedside internet access…)
grantdale at January 10, 2006 02:22 PM
raj, I hope you remember I work as a consultant analyst.
No, I did not know that. But I work as a lawyer. And I (mentally) cross-examine everything I read. It has been suggested here that ex-gay “ministry” work does not pay well. Chamber’s comments here have shown that that is not true, particularly for the pigs at the top.
US$65K a year is a mighty healthy income, merely for rhetorically bashing gay people. And I would presume, but cannot prove, that that would no include any “in-kind income” from his sponsors–which may include upkeep on his US$325K house in Orlando. Reading between the lines, Chambers is a fundraiser for some organization and he uses the anti-gay rhetoric in his fundraising. I would suspect that Randy Thomas is, too. (I’d be interested in looking at his IRS1040 form. Not really).
Doesn’t the fact that these people don’t get honest jobs give you pause to question?
Alan Chambers at January 10, 2006 03:01 PM
I am not going to meet you in Orlando FL because I am not going to go to FL. Ever. If you have something to say in the defense of your positions, you can post it here.
I believe that I have pretty much figured you out. You are not a mystery.Alan Chambers at January 10, 2006 03:01 PM
I am not going to meet you in Orlando FL because I am not going to go to FL. Ever. And I will respond. If you have something to say in the defense of your positions, you can post it here.
I believe that I have pretty much figured you out. You are not a mystery.
raj,You may “(mentally) cross-examine everything” you read. What I am wondering is if you first bother to read everything.What does my forth paragraph say? Not only have I already paused, as you now suggest, but I also noted my conclusion. And way back my original post was examining the very “in kind” income you are now raising — i.e. the tax excempt “Ministry Housing Allowance” that boosts that $65K.May we get back to discussing the ins and outs of Exodus instead of each other, please?(and apologies if I sound pissed. I’m not. But repeating myself is a waste of both our time.)
grantdale at January 11, 2006 04:24 AM
I was not critizing what you said in the post that I cited. I’ve been saying the same thing here for some time. Chambers merely confirmed it.
Your up thread post was great, grantdale.
Not to worry about me and a cardiac arrest, I have a pacemaker!
My little silver dollar sized titatium alloy battery implanted in the upper right quadrant of my chest gives me jump starts in the mornings along with coffee and a treadmill workout.
My heart will go on….with enthusiasm!
Ah…Florida,
A hotbed of anti gay sentiment and laws.
No gay adoption, even after years of foster care and bonding by the gay parents.
No marriage for gay people, regardless of the endurance of the gay couples and if they have children to raise.
No hate crime protections in the law so that law enforcers can be informed and sensitive to the needs of gay and lesbian victims of crimes, or be unbiased if gays are the perpetrators.
No GSA’s on high school campuses, a program that would help prevent hate crimes and bias troubles against gays and lesbians.
Yet Florida has no qualms about using public funds generated by the taxation of successful gays and lesbians to foster an anti gay environment in Florida.
One of the legacies of Anita Bryant no doubt.
And Florida has one of the biggest populations of children abandoned to public institutions as well, left unadopted by competent and potential gay parents who could lighten that burden.
I guess you can find fertile ground for your beliefs, eh Chambers?
But as long as gay people are the losers, it’s all good for civilization and marriage and families, right?
Posted by: grantdale at January 11, 2006 01:11 AM
I agree with Regan, excellent job grantdale. I’m surprised more people didn’t offer some examples of things Alan Chambers would address if he cared about the right to self determination and helping same sex attracted people live the way they themselves feel is best.
I don’t actually stand against any individual choosing to supress their same sex attraction if they’re informed and honestly think that’s the best way to overcome the pain of social rejection.
However I deeply resent organizations like Exodus creating, supporting and using social rejection to create the pain they then profit from “treating”.
Its hard to see how they can seperate merely offering “reparative therapy” from at least some responsibility for creating pain that wouldn’t otherwise exist but for the existence of Exodus itself. Perhaps if they kept the promotion and offering of this “service” to their churches and weren’t publicly promoting sexual repression without regard to the negative impacts on GLBTs seeking happiness with same sex attraction, then perhaps it could be overlooked as at least not creating additional pain for GLBTs – given all the sort of things grantdale and Regan said.
Anyone interested in real dialogue?
Do your fingers not work Alan? We (all of us here) can have a dialogue just fine at the keyboard. People throughout history have had dialogue via letters. Nowadays we have the Internet. Of course, our present hosts would need to consent. But there are always other forums if they would rather not. It’s your words that matter Alan, not how sparkling bright your smile is, or how firm your handshake.
And speaking of words…why the hell is your name on a letter from the AFA threatening Ford Motor Corporation with a boycott if they keep on treating the gay community like any other group of potential customers? Every time you go up against PFLAG Alan, you’re always babbling about how “homosexual activists” need to be more tolerant. How tolerant am I supposed to be of someone who keeps trying to make me a cultural pariah Alan?
Sometimes actions speak louder then words Alan. But if you have a few words to say for yourself Alan, then by all means say them.
Alan wont answer you. He does not like debate, he surrounds himself with friendly audiences and that’s it.
Apparently he’s not sure enough of his convictions to put them to any kind of a test.
(shorthand: bok bok bok)
Regan DuCasse at January 11, 2006 12:08 PM
No gay adoption, even after years of foster care and bonding by the gay parents…
I’ll merely point out here, as I’ve pointed out elsewhere, that denying adoption by gay people doesn’t injure gay people. It injures children. Many of whom appear to be unadoptable by straight couples.
These “christians” who oppose adoption by gay people hate children. But we knew that.
httm://www.lethimstay.com
Alan wont answer you. He does not like debate…
I suspect, but cannot prove, that Chambers is nothing more than a Public Relations operative for Exodus and its sponsors. Had anyone ever heard of him and his presumed homosexual activities before the last couple of years? I had not.
At least John Paulk was known to be gay when he was a student at Ohio State. Link for MikeA: ‘Before His ‘Ex-Gay’ Days, John Paulk Was My Flaky Neighbor’ By Stuart Koblentz
https://gaytoday.badpuppy.com/garchive/people/083198pe.htm
but apparently there is a substantial question as to whether Paulk’s wife was ever a lesbian (no link).
Scott at January 11, 2006 03:47 PM
…he (Chambers) surrounds himself with friendly audiences and that’s it.
Oh, Just one more point. Does this remind you of an American politician? Like the current pResident GWBush?
A lot of commentary on this page has little to do with Alan and Leslie affording a new home, extraordinary perks granted the Exodus president, the wisdom of nonprofit nepotism, or the lack of transparency in Exodus financial reporting.
I agree with Timothy and David about the tone and illogic of several comments, and I agree with grantdale that this topic exhausted itself long ago.